6 ms·

The world is not America. Your criminal justice system might be a Kafkaesque nightmare, but ours is mostly OK.

by jdietrich 7y ago

bradknowles 7y ago
Just wait. If yours isn't already as bad as ours, then just wait.
- jdietrich 7y ago
  I'm sure that's comforting to believe, but it just isn't true. America's criminal justice system is uniquely dysfunctional in a multitude of ways, best exemplified by your extraordinarily high incarceration rate. There is no law of nature that dictates that all criminal justice systems inexorably deteriorate into tyranny, it's just a specific and fixable set of policy failures. The iniquities of pre-trial detention and cash bail are fixable. Racially biased arrest, conviction and sentencing rates are fixable. Needlessly punitive sentences and an over-reliance on incarceration are fixable. Miscarriages of justice due to pseudoscientific forensic evidence and under-funded public defenders are fixable.
throw20102010 7y ago
Both the USA and UK provide legal aid for poor people even if the procedures are different. If you cannot afford a solicitor, the government will help you pay for one, but they probably won't be the best. In both countries rich people get better legal representation than poor people. Don't make the UK out to be some paradise (legal or otherwise), it struggles with plenty of its own problems.
- jdietrich 7y ago
  The UK doesn't have cash bail, so nobody is stuck in pre-trial detention simply because they can't afford to buy their freedom. It doesn't have elected prosecutors, judges or sheriffs. It incarcerates less than a quarter as many people per capita. It doesn't have three-strike laws and uses mandatory minimum sentences only for an extremely limited number of serious offences. The UK is far from perfect, but most of the criticisms of the American criminal justice system simply don't apply.
  - merpnderp 7y ago
    Aren’t people far more likely to be a victim of crime in the UK?
    - deleted 7y ago
      [deleted]
    - ska 7y ago
      It doesn't seem to be true (some silly news articles notwithstanding) but these things are surprisingly difficult to compare properly.
    - jdietrich 7y ago
      It's very difficult to compare like-for-like, because we have different laws and compile crime statistics differently. The intentional homicide rate is substantially lower in the UK (1.2 vs 5.35 per 100,000), as is our rate of killings by law enforcement (0.2 vs 30.4 per 10,000,000). The UK may have slightly more property crime (12.2% vs 10% of population victimised), but it's not clear if that comparison is statistically valid. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rate https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intention... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_killings_by_law_enforcement_officers_by_countries https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_killings_by_law_enforc... https://www.nationmaster.com/country-info/stats/Crime/Property-crime-victims https://www.nationmaster.com/country-info/stats/Crime/Proper...
    - dazc 7y ago
      From petty crime, I suspect, yes. Why, because even when criminals are convicted they spend very short periods of time in prison (if at all). And, on release, they have much less chance of integrating into normal society than previously and fall into a pattern of reoffending, going to prison, reoffending, and so on. In the UK, it seems, almost everyone has a tale about when they were burgled, when they were mugged or when their car was broken into. Is this so in other countries, I think not?
      - mantap 7y ago
keiru 7y ago
Let's agree on that just for the sake of argument. Systems change, but once settled facial recognition will not go away. You might find yourself engulfed in hell before you know it.
- lostjohnny 7y ago
  Just like now.
TazeTSchnitzel 7y ago
There were big cuts to legal aid in the UK under the Coalition.
hdfbdtbcdg 7y ago
You really need to read up on changes to legal aid in the UK.
- jdietrich 7y ago
  I'm well aware of the cuts to legal aid and have lobbied against them. It is worth noting that the changes to legal aid have primarily affected civil law, with the effects on criminal law being primarily limited to means-testing for high earners and an 8.25% reduction in overall fees paid to legal practitioners. Although it is clear that the cuts have significantly impacted family, immigration and welfare benefits cases, it is not clear that they have affected the fairness of the criminal legal system.
  - hdfbdtbcdg 7y ago
    Why should an innocent richer person have to use their life savings defending a charge of which they are innocent? (Of course the poorer person would be found guilty and sent to prison so the system is even more unfair for them.)
  - DanBC 7y ago
    They've definitely affected criminal law. The secret barrister's book describes it quite well.
    - hdfbdtbcdg 7y ago
      8.25% is significant cut. I wonder if that is inflation adjusted?

The world is not America. Your criminal justice system might be a Kafkaesque nightmare, but ours is mostly OK.

bradknowles 7y ago

Just wait. If yours isn't already as bad as ours, then just wait.

jdietrich 7y ago
I'm sure that's comforting to believe, but it just isn't true. America's criminal justice system is uniquely dysfunctional in a multitude of ways, best exemplified by your extraordinarily high incarceration rate. There is no law of nature that dictates that all criminal justice systems inexorably deteriorate into tyranny, it's just a specific and fixable set of policy failures. The iniquities of pre-trial detention and cash bail are fixable. Racially biased arrest, conviction and sentencing rates are fixable. Needlessly punitive sentences and an over-reliance on incarceration are fixable. Miscarriages of justice due to pseudoscientific forensic evidence and under-funded public defenders are fixable.

throw20102010 7y ago

Both the USA and UK provide legal aid for poor people even if the procedures are different. If you cannot afford a solicitor, the government will help you pay for one, but they probably won't be the best. In both countries rich people get better legal representation than poor people. Don't make the UK out to be some paradise (legal or otherwise), it struggles with plenty of its own problems.

jdietrich 7y ago
The UK doesn't have cash bail, so nobody is stuck in pre-trial detention simply because they can't afford to buy their freedom. It doesn't have elected prosecutors, judges or sheriffs. It incarcerates less than a quarter as many people per capita. It doesn't have three-strike laws and uses mandatory minimum sentences only for an extremely limited number of serious offences. The UK is far from perfect, but most of the criticisms of the American criminal justice system simply don't apply.
- merpnderp 7y ago
  Aren’t people far more likely to be a victim of crime in the UK?
  - deleted 7y ago
    [deleted]
  - ska 7y ago
    It doesn't seem to be true (some silly news articles notwithstanding) but these things are surprisingly difficult to compare properly.
  - jdietrich 7y ago
    It's very difficult to compare like-for-like, because we have different laws and compile crime statistics differently. The intentional homicide rate is substantially lower in the UK (1.2 vs 5.35 per 100,000), as is our rate of killings by law enforcement (0.2 vs 30.4 per 10,000,000). The UK may have slightly more property crime (12.2% vs 10% of population victimised), but it's not clear if that comparison is statistically valid. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rate https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intention... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_killings_by_law_enforcement_officers_by_countries https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_killings_by_law_enforc... https://www.nationmaster.com/country-info/stats/Crime/Property-crime-victims https://www.nationmaster.com/country-info/stats/Crime/Proper...
  - dazc 7y ago
    From petty crime, I suspect, yes. Why, because even when criminals are convicted they spend very short periods of time in prison (if at all). And, on release, they have much less chance of integrating into normal society than previously and fall into a pattern of reoffending, going to prison, reoffending, and so on. In the UK, it seems, almost everyone has a tale about when they were burgled, when they were mugged or when their car was broken into. Is this so in other countries, I think not?
    - mantap 7y ago

keiru 7y ago

Let's agree on that just for the sake of argument. Systems change, but once settled facial recognition will not go away. You might find yourself engulfed in hell before you know it.

lostjohnny 7y ago
Just like now.

TazeTSchnitzel 7y ago

There were big cuts to legal aid in the UK under the Coalition.

hdfbdtbcdg 7y ago

You really need to read up on changes to legal aid in the UK.

jdietrich 7y ago
I'm well aware of the cuts to legal aid and have lobbied against them. It is worth noting that the changes to legal aid have primarily affected civil law, with the effects on criminal law being primarily limited to means-testing for high earners and an 8.25% reduction in overall fees paid to legal practitioners. Although it is clear that the cuts have significantly impacted family, immigration and welfare benefits cases, it is not clear that they have affected the fairness of the criminal legal system.
- hdfbdtbcdg 7y ago
  Why should an innocent richer person have to use their life savings defending a charge of which they are innocent? (Of course the poorer person would be found guilty and sent to prison so the system is even more unfair for them.)
- DanBC 7y ago
  They've definitely affected criminal law. The secret barrister's book describes it quite well.
  - hdfbdtbcdg 7y ago
    8.25% is significant cut. I wonder if that is inflation adjusted?