3 ms·

I imagine a QBist would say that when you performed your additional secret operations you gained more information and therefore you were able to develop more ac

by n4r9 7y ago

I imagine a QBist would say that when you performed your additional secret operations you gained more information and therefore you were able to develop more accurate beliefs. Is your issue that a belief can be completely wrong, or rather that two people can hold diametrically opposing beliefs?

kgwgk 7y ago
I quoted above Fuchs, the main proponent of QBism, saying that in that example "We learn nothing new; we just change what we can predict as a consequence of the side effects of our experimental intervention. That is to say, there is a sense in which the measurement is solely disturbance." So it is not about refining our knowledge of the physical state as it was, it is about changing the physical state and learning what the new state happens to be. Different people can have different beliefs (different descriptions of the physical state) but not all the beliefs are equally valid. We can in principle check how well they fit with the (shared, objective) reality. In general this is possible only statistically (comparing realized frequencies with calculated probabilities) but in the example above it can be done from a single event: if something impossible according to your beliefs does happen, your beliefs were incompatible with reality and therefore untenable.
- n4r9 7y ago
  I think I'm with you but I don't understand how this is a criticism of QBism (if that's indeed what it is). It's possible for one's beliefs to turn out to be completely wrong because of some secret actions which you were not aware of. This is just as true classically as in the quantum regime. I don't see that this requires more of an explanation than we've already given it.
  - kgwgk 7y ago
    This is not a criticism of QBism. It's an explanation of what QBism says, as far as I understand, and how (at least in this case) it's no different from the standard QM description: the system of interest is initially in a known quantum state described by one wave function, we perform a measurement, the quantum state is now the eigenstate corresponding to the outcome of the measurement and described by a different wave function. In standard quantum mechanics the change in the quantum state is called "collapse of the wave function", in QBism it may be called "mental readjustment" but I fail to see any substantial difference if that "mental readjustment" comes together with an actual physical change in the system ("the measurement is solely disturbance"). I just find that it's misleading to say that > in neo-Copenhagen interpretations like QBism the apparent collapse is merely a reflection of an agent's belief update process. or > in some interpretations the wave function is "really objectively out there", but in others [presumably including QBism] the wave function is "just a good way to store my beliefs about the future".
    - n4r9 7y ago
      Ah, I think I have a clearer understanding of what you're getting at now. I think your first objection is to the idea that nothing physical is actually happening during the collapse of the wave function. On this I completely agree and I apologise for having used very poor phrasing. When I said "merely a reflection" I didn't intend to mean that nothing physical is occurring. I meant that (according to QBism) there is not a real objective quantum system whose real objective quantum state irreversibly collapses into a single real objective pure state. Rather, an agent has a physical interaction (a "kick") with the real world, which incurs a particular outcome, after which the agent updates their beliefs about the outcomes of future interactions in a manner analogous to Bayesian updating. The fact that this update process happens to be conveniently described by a mathematical operation we call "collapse" is neither here nor there to a QBist. I think your second objection is something like this: some beliefs are better than others. In many situations there appears to be one belief which is "the best". Therefore whichever belief is "the best" is essentially an objective description of the world. Therefore the quantum state of a system is real and objective. Is that a fair assessment? Whether or not this objection holds water, I must retain the claim that in QBism the wave function is not "really objectively out there". It is clear that in QBism a quantum state represents an agent's beliefs (or in weaker interpretations, an agent's information) regarding a system, not something objective about the system. Fuchs, Schack, Caves and others have said this again and again. For example: > Contrary to those desires, quantum theory does not describe physical reality. What it does is provide an algorithm for computing probabilities for the macroscopic events (“detector clicks”) that are the consequences of our experimental interventions. http://www.phy.pku.edu.cn/~qhcao/resources/class/QM/PTO000070.pdf http://www.phy.pku.edu.cn/~qhcao/resources/class/QM/PTO00007... > In other words, Fuchs argued, the wave function does not describe the world—it describes the observer. “Quantum mechanics,” he says, “is a law of thought.” Quantum Bayesianism, or QBism as Fuchs now calls it, solves many of quantum theory’s deepest mysteries. Take, for instance, the infamous “collapse of the wave function,” wherein the quantum system inexplicably transitions from multiple simultaneous states to a single actuality. According to QBism, the wave function’s “collapse” is simply the observer updating his or her beliefs after making a measurement. https://www.wired.com/2015/06/private-view-quantum-reality/ https://www.wired.com/2015/06/private-view-quantum-reality/ > QUANTUM STATES DO NOT EXIST > The world may be full of stuff and things of all kinds, but among all the stuff and all the things, there is no unique, observer-independent, quantum-state kind of stuff > Specifically, there can be no such thing as a right and true quantum state, if such is thought of as defined by criteria external to the agent making the assignment: Quantum states must instead be like personalist, Bayesian probabilities https://arxiv.org/pdf/1003.5209.pdf https://arxiv.org/pdf/1003.5209.pdf BTW, have you heard of the PBR theorem? It made me do a lot of thinking about what it could possibly mean for the quantum state to be a physical fact vs simply information about an underlying state. If these sorts of ideas are interesting to you, you might enjoy a write-up of the theorem by Matt Leifer: https://arxiv.org/pdf/1409.1570.pdf https://arxiv.org/pdf/1409.1570.pdf

by n4r9 7y ago

kgwgk 7y ago

I quoted above Fuchs, the main proponent of QBism, saying that in that example "We learn nothing new; we just change what we can predict as a consequence of the side effects of our experimental intervention. That is to say, there is a sense in which the measurement is solely disturbance." So it is not about refining our knowledge of the physical state as it was, it is about changing the physical state and learning what the new state happens to be. Different people can have different beliefs (different descriptions of the physical state) but not all the beliefs are equally valid. We can in principle check how well they fit with the (shared, objective) reality. In general this is possible only statistically (comparing realized frequencies with calculated probabilities) but in the example above it can be done from a single event: if something impossible according to your beliefs does happen, your beliefs were incompatible with reality and therefore untenable.

n4r9 7y ago
I think I'm with you but I don't understand how this is a criticism of QBism (if that's indeed what it is). It's possible for one's beliefs to turn out to be completely wrong because of some secret actions which you were not aware of. This is just as true classically as in the quantum regime. I don't see that this requires more of an explanation than we've already given it.
- kgwgk 7y ago
  This is not a criticism of QBism. It's an explanation of what QBism says, as far as I understand, and how (at least in this case) it's no different from the standard QM description: the system of interest is initially in a known quantum state described by one wave function, we perform a measurement, the quantum state is now the eigenstate corresponding to the outcome of the measurement and described by a different wave function. In standard quantum mechanics the change in the quantum state is called "collapse of the wave function", in QBism it may be called "mental readjustment" but I fail to see any substantial difference if that "mental readjustment" comes together with an actual physical change in the system ("the measurement is solely disturbance"). I just find that it's misleading to say that > in neo-Copenhagen interpretations like QBism the apparent collapse is merely a reflection of an agent's belief update process. or > in some interpretations the wave function is "really objectively out there", but in others [presumably including QBism] the wave function is "just a good way to store my beliefs about the future".
  - n4r9 7y ago
    Ah, I think I have a clearer understanding of what you're getting at now. I think your first objection is to the idea that nothing physical is actually happening during the collapse of the wave function. On this I completely agree and I apologise for having used very poor phrasing. When I said "merely a reflection" I didn't intend to mean that nothing physical is occurring. I meant that (according to QBism) there is not a real objective quantum system whose real objective quantum state irreversibly collapses into a single real objective pure state. Rather, an agent has a physical interaction (a "kick") with the real world, which incurs a particular outcome, after which the agent updates their beliefs about the outcomes of future interactions in a manner analogous to Bayesian updating. The fact that this update process happens to be conveniently described by a mathematical operation we call "collapse" is neither here nor there to a QBist. I think your second objection is something like this: some beliefs are better than others. In many situations there appears to be one belief which is "the best". Therefore whichever belief is "the best" is essentially an objective description of the world. Therefore the quantum state of a system is real and objective. Is that a fair assessment? Whether or not this objection holds water, I must retain the claim that in QBism the wave function is not "really objectively out there". It is clear that in QBism a quantum state represents an agent's beliefs (or in weaker interpretations, an agent's information) regarding a system, not something objective about the system. Fuchs, Schack, Caves and others have said this again and again. For example: > Contrary to those desires, quantum theory does not describe physical reality. What it does is provide an algorithm for computing probabilities for the macroscopic events (“detector clicks”) that are the consequences of our experimental interventions. http://www.phy.pku.edu.cn/~qhcao/resources/class/QM/PTO000070.pdf http://www.phy.pku.edu.cn/~qhcao/resources/class/QM/PTO00007... > In other words, Fuchs argued, the wave function does not describe the world—it describes the observer. “Quantum mechanics,” he says, “is a law of thought.” Quantum Bayesianism, or QBism as Fuchs now calls it, solves many of quantum theory’s deepest mysteries. Take, for instance, the infamous “collapse of the wave function,” wherein the quantum system inexplicably transitions from multiple simultaneous states to a single actuality. According to QBism, the wave function’s “collapse” is simply the observer updating his or her beliefs after making a measurement. https://www.wired.com/2015/06/private-view-quantum-reality/ https://www.wired.com/2015/06/private-view-quantum-reality/ > QUANTUM STATES DO NOT EXIST > The world may be full of stuff and things of all kinds, but among all the stuff and all the things, there is no unique, observer-independent, quantum-state kind of stuff > Specifically, there can be no such thing as a right and true quantum state, if such is thought of as defined by criteria external to the agent making the assignment: Quantum states must instead be like personalist, Bayesian probabilities https://arxiv.org/pdf/1003.5209.pdf https://arxiv.org/pdf/1003.5209.pdf BTW, have you heard of the PBR theorem? It made me do a lot of thinking about what it could possibly mean for the quantum state to be a physical fact vs simply information about an underlying state. If these sorts of ideas are interesting to you, you might enjoy a write-up of the theorem by Matt Leifer: https://arxiv.org/pdf/1409.1570.pdf https://arxiv.org/pdf/1409.1570.pdf