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The loss of time is minimal for small distances (< 500km) as you don't have check-in and don't have to travel to the airport first. For longer distance flights

The loss of time is minimal for small distances (< 500km) as you don't have check-in and don't have to travel to the airport first. For longer distance flights: Wake up at 07:00, take the train to the airport at 08:00, take the 10:30 flight from Schiphol to Barcelona and get out of the airport at 15:00. Take a taxi to the city center and arrive at 15:30. Or take the 08:00 train, sit back, relax and get off right in the center of the city at 20:00. You have may lost a couple of hours but you could sit down and read a book the entire time. Luggage is easier. Nobody groping you or giving you troubles about fluids. And good food in the trains too. Ever better: Night trains. Take the 21:00 train. Fall asleep. Wake up at 09:00 having passed two countries.

tluyben2 7y ago
Yes, I am not bothered by that. I'm bothered by the price. The time is usually fine; there are plugs in the train and it's comfortable. But for trips I do Malaga-Amsterdam or Malaga-London return we are talking 400-600 for train vs <150 for a flight. Bus is the same price as a plane ticket but unsafer (than both train & flight), longer and vastly more uncomfortable (I am Dutch; tall and not a spring chicken).
- Maarten88 7y ago
  So you're one of those Dutch people living in Andalusia, flying out to work in the Netherlands or other places during the week? I can understand why someone would do that, but it is affordable only because aviation is mostly untaxed and very inexpensive compared to any other transportation modes. And it is, imo, not a very sustainable lifestyle. Aviation should be taxed like other transportation (fuel, vat), I do not understand why it is taking forever for politics to come around to doing this. Airplane tickets need to cost at least twice what they are now, the tax income used for sustainable energy investments, that would work much better than that CO2 add-on that they try to shame you into buying at KLM.
  - tluyben2 7y ago
    I fly to NL twice a year :) I fly mostly to Asia for clients. But I would do that twice a year by train if it were cheaper as that's (usually) not for business. And yes, I agree they should add it on. I am not bothered with paying a bit more and making it more sustainable, so I try to convince clients to do more via video conferencing, but it is just not as good. I suffer from terrible tinnitus and I found that a lot of (men) suffer from that as well but don't talk about it (shame?) so in conference calls often just no-one can understand anything and politeness/shame prevents anyone (but me) from saying anything about it. Face to face that issue is just not there. Edit: also I would Find it a better idea if the gov subsidizes the NS like they used to; you want cars of the streets and people travel less by air; make trains really really cheap. Inside NL it's often cheaper (and definitely more convenient) to take the car as well. To me that makes no sense really. I take the train usually in NL because I don't have a car there, but everyone I know just takes their car everywhere unless they live in the center of Amsterdam and travel inside Amsterdam. Edit: > I can understand why someone would do that, but it is affordable only because aviation is mostly untaxed and very inexpensive compared to any other transportation modes. I understand this point that yes, that is not fair. And I understand it is not a viable model if I would just fly where I work (which I don't; I work 90% from home) and I know others do though. But the non sustainable model comes from the fact there are too many emissions which are not covered; as a consumer, why would I care, in any other way but that, about how these prices are formed? I see they are (a lot cheaper), so if I cover the emissions, they are still cheaper. So it's far better than taking the train if you look at it like that. And it does not seem to change soon either so seems quite sustainable too.
- systemtest 7y ago
  I'm not bothered by the price. As a freelancer, I run a business. And businesses should be held accountable for their actions and their impact on the climate. It would be hypocritical for me to complain about Shell using their corporate structure to ruin the earth while my own business is buying plane tickets for European destinations. So I have no problem with having a little less profit at the end of the year if it means that my business operates with zero-emissions.
  - perfunctory 7y ago
    I wish I could upvote this more. And thanks for sharing this. It’s good to know I’m not alone and not the only “lunatic”.
  - GhostVII 7y ago
    If you are truly trying to reduce emissions, it is probably far more effective to buy the $150 plane ticket, and then buy $300 in carbon credits, or solar power or something like that.
    - skribbj 7y ago
      You seem to be spot on. According to ICAO (International Civil Aviation Organization) the carbon footprint of a flight from Malaga -> Amsterdam for 1 person is about 0.161t (metric ton) [1]. One carbon credit gives you the right to release 1t carbon dioxide and according to the NYT (2019) one 1 carbon credit is worth no more than $30 [2]. So, in taking the plane you release 0.16t, but you can prevent the release of up to $300/$30 = 10t with the money you save. So sure, the train releases less CO2, but if you instead fly and buy carbon credits you prevent 62 times your carbon footprint from the plane ever being released into the atmosphere. But I'm starting to wonder, does my math really check out here? These numbers seem kinda absurd. 1: https://www.icao.int/environmental-protection/CarbonOffset/Pages/default.aspx https://www.icao.int/environmental-protection/CarbonOffset/P... 2: https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2019/04/02/climate/pricing-carbon-emissions.html https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2019/04/02/climate/prici... EDIT: I made some edits to a better source, my inital source reported a flight would release 0.4t when in reality it's closer to 0.2
Hinrik 7y ago
According to Google Maps, every train itinerary from Amsterdam to Barcelona in the morning has 2-3 transfers, with the last one being a bus. And the shortest possible duration is just over 13.5 hours, not 12 like you said. The transfers and bus are still required if you go with a night train.
- ovi256 7y ago
  Google Maps does not have all the trains. Use a dedicated train planner like https://www.thetrainline.com/ https://www.thetrainline.com/ which works great for EU trains.
- systemtest 7y ago
  I looked it up for tomorrow. 11:15 Amsterdam - 14:35 Paris Nord. Then 16:07 Paris Gare de Lyon - 22:44 Barcelona Sants. From Nord to Gare de Lyon you can walk, take a train or bus, depending on the weather. Have some late lunch or early dinner at a cafe and enjoy Paris for a bit. The total journey will take you 11 hours and 29 minutes. I'm not sure about the night trains and if they are still an option. Perhaps there are some improvements possible there, yes.
- Freak_NL 7y ago
  The last bus bit is only necessary if you absolutely must go to the Barcelona Estació de França station. The train from Toulouse stops in Barcelona Sants station. The fastest train connection from Amsterdam Centraal to Bercelona Sants takes 11:15. The night train option means you leave Amsterdam at 17:15, and end up in Barcelona before noon. That's not too bad, and you get to see a lot of nice scenery in the train from Amsterdam to Paris and Toulouse to Barcelona (the Paris to Toulouse being the night train). (Edit: you can check the itinerary on sncf.fr, amongst others)
dmitriid 7y ago
> you don't have check-in and don't have to travel to the airport first. Tou do have to travel to the train station first, though. Which, depending on where you live relative to the city may take longer than getting to the airport.
- 8draco8 7y ago
  Traveling by Eurostar train between countries also require airport-like security check.
Fnoord 7y ago
> Ever better: Night trains. Take the 21:00 train. Fall asleep. Wake up at 09:00 having passed two countries. Get mugged while asleep. Also, train with a small child? Also, > The loss of time is minimal for small distances (< 500km) as you don't have check-in and don't have to travel to the airport first. Depends. In like 2009 or so I had a train in Serbia. It went with 60 km/hour. It took me a whole day (24 hrs) to get to my destination. With plane and bus, it only took me half a day.
- kylegordon 7y ago
  > Get mugged while asleep. The overnight trains here (Scotland) have lockable cabins and lockers for those that choose to use the reclining seats. Not that crime is a problem anyway. > Also, train with a small child Travelling by plane with a small child seems equally irritating. 60kmh is pitifully slow. It certainly explains why plane is actually faster where you are. In the Blue Banana [1] high speed rail is a reality. The airlines have stakes in it, and discontinued regional flights for that reason. The trains are cruising at 300kmh within 5 minutes of leaving the station. 1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blue_Banana https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blue_Banana
  - 8draco8 7y ago
    > Travelling by plane with a small child seems equally irritating. I experienced that first hand and I rather have a flight. For me it was 2 hours flight plus another 2 hours getting in and out of airport. That's nothing with 23h of train ride on the same route with couple train changes. From my experience any travel over 4 hours long is almost impossible with a small child especially if most part of that time require sitting in one place.
  - Fnoord 7y ago
    > The overnight trains here (Scotland) have lockable cabins and lockers for those that choose to use the reclining seats. Not that crime is a problem anyway. I've had these long distance trains a couple of times and ICE of Deutsche Bahn (I went through Germany with ICE) did not have such coupes or lockers. > It certainly explains why plane is actually faster where you are. It was an example of a vacation in Serbia. Train is great here in The Netherlands. People moan they're not on time, but if you look at the density of the infrastructure its a prestige. > Travelling by plane with a small child seems equally irritating. True, but the thing is, that travel by train (as I described) is very long. Either way all you gotta do is keep them (relatively) silent. Either via asleep or by keeping them occupied. Regardless now that I have a child, I have a lot more sympathy for other parents with their child. And dogs remain the most disgusting, for me.

tluyben2 7y ago

Yes, I am not bothered by that. I'm bothered by the price. The time is usually fine; there are plugs in the train and it's comfortable. But for trips I do Malaga-Amsterdam or Malaga-London return we are talking 400-600 for train vs <150 for a flight. Bus is the same price as a plane ticket but unsafer (than both train & flight), longer and vastly more uncomfortable (I am Dutch; tall and not a spring chicken).

Maarten88 7y ago
So you're one of those Dutch people living in Andalusia, flying out to work in the Netherlands or other places during the week? I can understand why someone would do that, but it is affordable only because aviation is mostly untaxed and very inexpensive compared to any other transportation modes. And it is, imo, not a very sustainable lifestyle. Aviation should be taxed like other transportation (fuel, vat), I do not understand why it is taking forever for politics to come around to doing this. Airplane tickets need to cost at least twice what they are now, the tax income used for sustainable energy investments, that would work much better than that CO2 add-on that they try to shame you into buying at KLM.
- tluyben2 7y ago
  I fly to NL twice a year :) I fly mostly to Asia for clients. But I would do that twice a year by train if it were cheaper as that's (usually) not for business. And yes, I agree they should add it on. I am not bothered with paying a bit more and making it more sustainable, so I try to convince clients to do more via video conferencing, but it is just not as good. I suffer from terrible tinnitus and I found that a lot of (men) suffer from that as well but don't talk about it (shame?) so in conference calls often just no-one can understand anything and politeness/shame prevents anyone (but me) from saying anything about it. Face to face that issue is just not there. Edit: also I would Find it a better idea if the gov subsidizes the NS like they used to; you want cars of the streets and people travel less by air; make trains really really cheap. Inside NL it's often cheaper (and definitely more convenient) to take the car as well. To me that makes no sense really. I take the train usually in NL because I don't have a car there, but everyone I know just takes their car everywhere unless they live in the center of Amsterdam and travel inside Amsterdam. Edit: > I can understand why someone would do that, but it is affordable only because aviation is mostly untaxed and very inexpensive compared to any other transportation modes. I understand this point that yes, that is not fair. And I understand it is not a viable model if I would just fly where I work (which I don't; I work 90% from home) and I know others do though. But the non sustainable model comes from the fact there are too many emissions which are not covered; as a consumer, why would I care, in any other way but that, about how these prices are formed? I see they are (a lot cheaper), so if I cover the emissions, they are still cheaper. So it's far better than taking the train if you look at it like that. And it does not seem to change soon either so seems quite sustainable too.
systemtest 7y ago
I'm not bothered by the price. As a freelancer, I run a business. And businesses should be held accountable for their actions and their impact on the climate. It would be hypocritical for me to complain about Shell using their corporate structure to ruin the earth while my own business is buying plane tickets for European destinations. So I have no problem with having a little less profit at the end of the year if it means that my business operates with zero-emissions.
- perfunctory 7y ago
  I wish I could upvote this more. And thanks for sharing this. It’s good to know I’m not alone and not the only “lunatic”.
- GhostVII 7y ago
  If you are truly trying to reduce emissions, it is probably far more effective to buy the $150 plane ticket, and then buy $300 in carbon credits, or solar power or something like that.
  - skribbj 7y ago
    You seem to be spot on. According to ICAO (International Civil Aviation Organization) the carbon footprint of a flight from Malaga -> Amsterdam for 1 person is about 0.161t (metric ton) [1]. One carbon credit gives you the right to release 1t carbon dioxide and according to the NYT (2019) one 1 carbon credit is worth no more than $30 [2]. So, in taking the plane you release 0.16t, but you can prevent the release of up to $300/$30 = 10t with the money you save. So sure, the train releases less CO2, but if you instead fly and buy carbon credits you prevent 62 times your carbon footprint from the plane ever being released into the atmosphere. But I'm starting to wonder, does my math really check out here? These numbers seem kinda absurd. 1: https://www.icao.int/environmental-protection/CarbonOffset/Pages/default.aspx https://www.icao.int/environmental-protection/CarbonOffset/P... 2: https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2019/04/02/climate/pricing-carbon-emissions.html https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2019/04/02/climate/prici... EDIT: I made some edits to a better source, my inital source reported a flight would release 0.4t when in reality it's closer to 0.2

Hinrik 7y ago

According to Google Maps, every train itinerary from Amsterdam to Barcelona in the morning has 2-3 transfers, with the last one being a bus. And the shortest possible duration is just over 13.5 hours, not 12 like you said. The transfers and bus are still required if you go with a night train.

ovi256 7y ago
Google Maps does not have all the trains. Use a dedicated train planner like https://www.thetrainline.com/ https://www.thetrainline.com/ which works great for EU trains.
systemtest 7y ago
I looked it up for tomorrow. 11:15 Amsterdam - 14:35 Paris Nord. Then 16:07 Paris Gare de Lyon - 22:44 Barcelona Sants. From Nord to Gare de Lyon you can walk, take a train or bus, depending on the weather. Have some late lunch or early dinner at a cafe and enjoy Paris for a bit. The total journey will take you 11 hours and 29 minutes. I'm not sure about the night trains and if they are still an option. Perhaps there are some improvements possible there, yes.
Freak_NL 7y ago
The last bus bit is only necessary if you absolutely must go to the Barcelona Estació de França station. The train from Toulouse stops in Barcelona Sants station. The fastest train connection from Amsterdam Centraal to Bercelona Sants takes 11:15. The night train option means you leave Amsterdam at 17:15, and end up in Barcelona before noon. That's not too bad, and you get to see a lot of nice scenery in the train from Amsterdam to Paris and Toulouse to Barcelona (the Paris to Toulouse being the night train). (Edit: you can check the itinerary on sncf.fr, amongst others)

dmitriid 7y ago

> you don't have check-in and don't have to travel to the airport first. Tou do have to travel to the train station first, though. Which, depending on where you live relative to the city may take longer than getting to the airport.

8draco8 7y ago
Traveling by Eurostar train between countries also require airport-like security check.

Fnoord 7y ago

> Ever better: Night trains. Take the 21:00 train. Fall asleep. Wake up at 09:00 having passed two countries. Get mugged while asleep. Also, train with a small child? Also, > The loss of time is minimal for small distances (< 500km) as you don't have check-in and don't have to travel to the airport first. Depends. In like 2009 or so I had a train in Serbia. It went with 60 km/hour. It took me a whole day (24 hrs) to get to my destination. With plane and bus, it only took me half a day.

kylegordon 7y ago
> Get mugged while asleep. The overnight trains here (Scotland) have lockable cabins and lockers for those that choose to use the reclining seats. Not that crime is a problem anyway. > Also, train with a small child Travelling by plane with a small child seems equally irritating. 60kmh is pitifully slow. It certainly explains why plane is actually faster where you are. In the Blue Banana [1] high speed rail is a reality. The airlines have stakes in it, and discontinued regional flights for that reason. The trains are cruising at 300kmh within 5 minutes of leaving the station. 1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blue_Banana https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blue_Banana
- 8draco8 7y ago
  > Travelling by plane with a small child seems equally irritating. I experienced that first hand and I rather have a flight. For me it was 2 hours flight plus another 2 hours getting in and out of airport. That's nothing with 23h of train ride on the same route with couple train changes. From my experience any travel over 4 hours long is almost impossible with a small child especially if most part of that time require sitting in one place.
- Fnoord 7y ago
  > The overnight trains here (Scotland) have lockable cabins and lockers for those that choose to use the reclining seats. Not that crime is a problem anyway. I've had these long distance trains a couple of times and ICE of Deutsche Bahn (I went through Germany with ICE) did not have such coupes or lockers. > It certainly explains why plane is actually faster where you are. It was an example of a vacation in Serbia. Train is great here in The Netherlands. People moan they're not on time, but if you look at the density of the infrastructure its a prestige. > Travelling by plane with a small child seems equally irritating. True, but the thing is, that travel by train (as I described) is very long. Either way all you gotta do is keep them (relatively) silent. Either via asleep or by keeping them occupied. Regardless now that I have a child, I have a lot more sympathy for other parents with their child. And dogs remain the most disgusting, for me.