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I dwell on chaos theory. I don't think its significance has been properly absorbed by the public consciousness yet. There's something simultaneously liberating

by hanoz 7y ago

I dwell on chaos theory. I don't think its significance has been properly absorbed by the public consciousness yet. There's something simultaneously liberating and unsettling about it. For instance I'm often conscious that it's a mathematical near certainty that if I'd done anything different in my earlier years, absolutely anything at all, then my children would not exist, and therefore I cannot bring myself to regret anything I ever did. Conversely it's unnerving to consider how unlikely my own existence is in the first place. Also, since appreciating chaos theory, I can no longer enjoy any movie involving time travel.

jes 7y ago
This is my experience as well. I don’t believe we have libertarian free will, either. I guess I’m aligned with the Harris / Sapolsky / Caruso / Cashmore crowd.
donaq 7y ago
Correct me if I'm wrong, but chaotic systems are unpredictable because they are complex and infinitesimally small variations in starting conditions result in hugely different outcomes. They are not, however, non-deterministic. If the universe is merely chaotic and not actually stochastic, then the existence of you and your children are not only not unlikely, it was inevitable.
- dreamcompiler 7y ago
  Exactly right. Unless you believe quantum mechanics throws a monkey wrench into determinism. Which it certainly does in the realm of the very small. Chaos theory and QM are completely orthogonal (by which I mean they say different things about the universe, not that they are in conflict with one another). And they both screw up the idea of a predictable universe.
  - colordrops 7y ago
    Quantum mechanics demonstrating non-determinism in the realm of the very small necessarily means that the macroscopic realm is also non-deterministic. A non-zero percentage of events occur in which that one particle appearing in one place rather than an is just enough to cause the macroscopic object to take a materially different path. In fact a simple thought experiment shows that a system could be engineered to demonstrate this. Add a sensor that reads which way a particle goes in a double slit experiment and based on the direction, flip a switch that makes a train go east or west based on the sensor read out.
    - deleted 7y ago
      [deleted]
    - eridius 7y ago
      Adding a sensor to the double slit experiment to measure which slit the particle goes through removes the quantum effects from the experiment.
      - colordrops 7y ago
        Not sure what you mean. Quantum effects don't "disappear". They are physical laws. Which slit the particle enters after the wave decoheres is precisely a non-deterministic element of quantum mechanics.
        bouncycastle 7y ago
        But wouldn't measuring something also alter the outcome? Ie. Observer Effect https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Observer_effect_(physics) https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Observer_effect_(physics)
        colordrops 7y ago
        It doesn't alter the outcome. It causes it to decohere into a particular outcome. There is no way to force a particular outcome, hence it being non-deterministic.
  - donaq 7y ago
    Aren't there deterministic interpretations of QM? Or have those been disproven?
    - TomasSedovic 7y ago
      (disclaimer: not a physicist, never looked into the maths, but I'm intrigued by QF) There are deterministic interpretations that are very much on the table. The Everett's Many Worlds[1] is fully deterministic (and depending on your view, the simplest one too): the universe is a quantum wave function evolving according to the Shrödinger's equation. That's it. A lot (if not all) of the hidden variables theories are also deterministic. The apparent non-determinism stems from the aforementioned variables that we don't/can't see. I keep hearing more and more about the Pilot wave theory[2] recently. And that's a hidden-variables deterministic interpretation. [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Many-worlds_interpretation https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Many-worlds_interpretation [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pilot_wave_theory https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pilot_wave_theory
  - theprotocol 7y ago
    How do we know that what we perceive as randomness in quantum mechanics is "true" randomness, and not just something we say is "random" because we fail to model it?
shitgoose 7y ago
right, now think how many children didn't come to existence because you did something. just enjoy the moment and what you have got:) and, chaos theory is one mind bender indeed.
ganzuul 7y ago
If time exists then all that has happened and will happened has existence. Does this existence have energy when you factor out time? Do we need infinite energy to describe a model universe? If there are bounds to this 'non-inertial entropy' then perhaps QM can be explained as quantization noise in 4D spacetime. In this model there are a lot fewer candidate universes.
ianai 7y ago
My naive understanding of chaos theory was more about studying how minute changes could create measurable changes in chaotic systems. But it also often seemed that “all the noise” was very minimally affected by such changes. The smaller the change the smaller the affect. So I can’t help but think certain big things - like existence of children - are harder to perturb away. But what do I know?
mongol 7y ago
I don't think that is the case, at least not as an absolute rule. There are stable and non-stable outcomes of what you do. If you choose one job over another definitely affects your life like you describe. But if you choose to have coffee over tea one morning you will still end up behind the same office desk later in the day. Of course, if you met your wife by a random accident that would not happen if you were one minute late, there is something about it that the beverage choice could affect. But if you met her on your workplace, then less so.
kgwgk 7y ago
The unpredictability of the consequences of our actions (in the context of free will and fate) has been in the consciousness of the Western public since Sophocles at least.
rmwaite 7y ago
On the topic of time travel movies, I find time loops the most plausible for that reason.

by hanoz 7y ago

jes 7y ago

This is my experience as well. I don’t believe we have libertarian free will, either. I guess I’m aligned with the Harris / Sapolsky / Caruso / Cashmore crowd.

donaq 7y ago

Correct me if I'm wrong, but chaotic systems are unpredictable because they are complex and infinitesimally small variations in starting conditions result in hugely different outcomes. They are not, however, non-deterministic. If the universe is merely chaotic and not actually stochastic, then the existence of you and your children are not only not unlikely, it was inevitable.

dreamcompiler 7y ago
Exactly right. Unless you believe quantum mechanics throws a monkey wrench into determinism. Which it certainly does in the realm of the very small. Chaos theory and QM are completely orthogonal (by which I mean they say different things about the universe, not that they are in conflict with one another). And they both screw up the idea of a predictable universe.
- colordrops 7y ago
  Quantum mechanics demonstrating non-determinism in the realm of the very small necessarily means that the macroscopic realm is also non-deterministic. A non-zero percentage of events occur in which that one particle appearing in one place rather than an is just enough to cause the macroscopic object to take a materially different path. In fact a simple thought experiment shows that a system could be engineered to demonstrate this. Add a sensor that reads which way a particle goes in a double slit experiment and based on the direction, flip a switch that makes a train go east or west based on the sensor read out.
  - deleted 7y ago
    [deleted]
  - eridius 7y ago
    Adding a sensor to the double slit experiment to measure which slit the particle goes through removes the quantum effects from the experiment.
    - colordrops 7y ago
      Not sure what you mean. Quantum effects don't "disappear". They are physical laws. Which slit the particle enters after the wave decoheres is precisely a non-deterministic element of quantum mechanics.
      - bouncycastle 7y ago
        But wouldn't measuring something also alter the outcome? Ie. Observer Effect https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Observer_effect_(physics) https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Observer_effect_(physics)
        colordrops 7y ago
        It doesn't alter the outcome. It causes it to decohere into a particular outcome. There is no way to force a particular outcome, hence it being non-deterministic.
- donaq 7y ago
  Aren't there deterministic interpretations of QM? Or have those been disproven?
  - TomasSedovic 7y ago
    (disclaimer: not a physicist, never looked into the maths, but I'm intrigued by QF) There are deterministic interpretations that are very much on the table. The Everett's Many Worlds[1] is fully deterministic (and depending on your view, the simplest one too): the universe is a quantum wave function evolving according to the Shrödinger's equation. That's it. A lot (if not all) of the hidden variables theories are also deterministic. The apparent non-determinism stems from the aforementioned variables that we don't/can't see. I keep hearing more and more about the Pilot wave theory[2] recently. And that's a hidden-variables deterministic interpretation. [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Many-worlds_interpretation https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Many-worlds_interpretation [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pilot_wave_theory https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pilot_wave_theory
- theprotocol 7y ago
  How do we know that what we perceive as randomness in quantum mechanics is "true" randomness, and not just something we say is "random" because we fail to model it?

shitgoose 7y ago

right, now think how many children didn't come to existence because you did something. just enjoy the moment and what you have got:) and, chaos theory is one mind bender indeed.

ganzuul 7y ago

If time exists then all that has happened and will happened has existence. Does this existence have energy when you factor out time? Do we need infinite energy to describe a model universe? If there are bounds to this 'non-inertial entropy' then perhaps QM can be explained as quantization noise in 4D spacetime. In this model there are a lot fewer candidate universes.

ianai 7y ago

My naive understanding of chaos theory was more about studying how minute changes could create measurable changes in chaotic systems. But it also often seemed that “all the noise” was very minimally affected by such changes. The smaller the change the smaller the affect. So I can’t help but think certain big things - like existence of children - are harder to perturb away. But what do I know?

mongol 7y ago

I don't think that is the case, at least not as an absolute rule. There are stable and non-stable outcomes of what you do. If you choose one job over another definitely affects your life like you describe. But if you choose to have coffee over tea one morning you will still end up behind the same office desk later in the day. Of course, if you met your wife by a random accident that would not happen if you were one minute late, there is something about it that the beverage choice could affect. But if you met her on your workplace, then less so.

kgwgk 7y ago

The unpredictability of the consequences of our actions (in the context of free will and fate) has been in the consciousness of the Western public since Sophocles at least.

rmwaite 7y ago

On the topic of time travel movies, I find time loops the most plausible for that reason.