3 ms·

I quite agree that the “punching down” thing is different this time. The progressives haven’t consolidated yet - especially economically. The white cis male beh

I quite agree that the “punching down” thing is different this time. The progressives haven’t consolidated yet - especially economically. The white cis male behind the computer screen definitely has the economic higher ground (or, his socioeracial status does). But, critically, I think they are punching “up” in terms of social status. I don’t think, and we should all hope, that most people uncomfortable with pronouns are also those that egg on a synagogue shooter. There are levels here. Who’s going to give them a place to belong first?

pjc50 7y ago
> most people uncomfortable with pronouns Interesting way to phrase it. Taken literally it's absurd - obviously people aren't allergic to saying "he" and "she". Presumably you mean chosen pronouns. Where it comes down to a matter of someone asking for a tiny bit of respect. Some respond to that graciously, a lot of people go along with it indifferently, but a few regard it as a massive outrage to be asked to be respectful towards a stranger. They escalate it; they raise it to a "me or them" issue, and are surprised that some people choose to exclude them so that they can include trans people instead. > Who’s going to give them a place to belong first? What does this mean? Does it mean a place where necessarily trans people can't belong? Certainly in the UK it's not a question of "belonging", most of the newspapers and large sections of all political parties have joined in the panic over trans people. Being anti-trans is tragically mainstream.
- taurath 7y ago
  > Interesting way to phrase it. Interesting (and very icy) way to respond. I think you’re making assumptions about me here :) I can think of more examples than those you’ve given. It can be people afraid to address people at all, because they’ve been hammered for getting it wrong in the past. Some figure it out, and some respond emotionally, reactively. It digs them a bigger hole. They decide that trans people and their allies are assholes, or bullies, and are holding the gun of social estrangement to their head. This isn’t the fault of the person who just wants to be respected as themselves - they’ve almost certainly experienced a metric fuckton of discrimination, lack of understanding, and hey maybe they’re just having a bad day and tired of fucking explaining it all the time, and then some ally who absolutely wants to have an argument right now starts brandishing a quote tweet. All this shit can happen without them ever even knowing each other’s name. There are a lot of people (I’m thinking small town high school here) who have never even interacted with a trans person irl (IE - none of them are out). I just would want people to recognize - chosen pronouns just went from being a not even aware of in public thing to aware. It’s natural for people to be confused, or lack empathy at first. I get frustrated and say fuck a lot when I have to relearn hotkeys when I switch IDEs at work. If someone didn’t get the memo, assume goodwill, just like you are in this conversation. I know all about TERFs. Thankfully I’ve yet to experience one irl. > What does this mean? Does it mean a place where necessarily trans people can't belong? It means it’s better for people to get better understanding than be welcomed with open arms by nazis. To the latter question - no.
  - cybersnowflake 7y ago
    We have an interesting display of the phenomenon I've been speaking of right here. Now that the Left is in power it has dropped all pretense of the devotion to freedom of speech and the marketplace of ideas that once supposedly was the core of its beliefs. It is lashing out in the same humorless ways the old WASP establishment did against barbs of the punks/hippies of yesteryear.

pjc50 7y ago

> most people uncomfortable with pronouns Interesting way to phrase it. Taken literally it's absurd - obviously people aren't allergic to saying "he" and "she". Presumably you mean chosen pronouns. Where it comes down to a matter of someone asking for a tiny bit of respect. Some respond to that graciously, a lot of people go along with it indifferently, but a few regard it as a massive outrage to be asked to be respectful towards a stranger. They escalate it; they raise it to a "me or them" issue, and are surprised that some people choose to exclude them so that they can include trans people instead. > Who’s going to give them a place to belong first? What does this mean? Does it mean a place where necessarily trans people can't belong? Certainly in the UK it's not a question of "belonging", most of the newspapers and large sections of all political parties have joined in the panic over trans people. Being anti-trans is tragically mainstream.

taurath 7y ago
> Interesting way to phrase it. Interesting (and very icy) way to respond. I think you’re making assumptions about me here :) I can think of more examples than those you’ve given. It can be people afraid to address people at all, because they’ve been hammered for getting it wrong in the past. Some figure it out, and some respond emotionally, reactively. It digs them a bigger hole. They decide that trans people and their allies are assholes, or bullies, and are holding the gun of social estrangement to their head. This isn’t the fault of the person who just wants to be respected as themselves - they’ve almost certainly experienced a metric fuckton of discrimination, lack of understanding, and hey maybe they’re just having a bad day and tired of fucking explaining it all the time, and then some ally who absolutely wants to have an argument right now starts brandishing a quote tweet. All this shit can happen without them ever even knowing each other’s name. There are a lot of people (I’m thinking small town high school here) who have never even interacted with a trans person irl (IE - none of them are out). I just would want people to recognize - chosen pronouns just went from being a not even aware of in public thing to aware. It’s natural for people to be confused, or lack empathy at first. I get frustrated and say fuck a lot when I have to relearn hotkeys when I switch IDEs at work. If someone didn’t get the memo, assume goodwill, just like you are in this conversation. I know all about TERFs. Thankfully I’ve yet to experience one irl. > What does this mean? Does it mean a place where necessarily trans people can't belong? It means it’s better for people to get better understanding than be welcomed with open arms by nazis. To the latter question - no.
- cybersnowflake 7y ago
  We have an interesting display of the phenomenon I've been speaking of right here. Now that the Left is in power it has dropped all pretense of the devotion to freedom of speech and the marketplace of ideas that once supposedly was the core of its beliefs. It is lashing out in the same humorless ways the old WASP establishment did against barbs of the punks/hippies of yesteryear.