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I'd love to know more about the development timeline of this. When did Apple realise the butterfly switches were not salvagable? My assumption is that Apple ha

I'd love to know more about the development timeline of this. When did Apple realise the butterfly switches were not salvagable? My assumption is that Apple has a two year lead time for new models, so that they would have started working on this rumored 2019 Macbook Air in late 2017. At that point they must have realised that their updated butterfly switches from the July 2017 Macbook Pros still had reliability issues, so they started working on Macbooks with scissor switches. But since that would take 2 years, they had to do something in the mean time, and tried the silicone barrier to improve the situation with the 2018 models. When that still didn't help, they introduced their keyboard service program to avoid further hits to Macbook Pro sales. Of course, that's all speculation, but I'd love to hear what the decisions were really like -- those must have been some very stressful meetings...

sjwright 7y ago
> When did Apple realise the butterfly switches were not salvagable? Probably about five minutes after Jony Ive left. Somehow I doubt the timing is a coincidence.
- close04 7y ago
  It’s probably one of the reasons for his departure. According to Ive, Apple is no longer pursuing design for the sake of design and it’s instead going for products that work but in a more “mundane” form. And this somehow is a bad thing.
  - _ph_ 7y ago
    I don't think Apple has pursued design for the sake of design until very recently. Apple devices traditionally combined great design with good functionality. The G5 iMac was not only beautiful but you could open it up in a minute with a simple screwdriver. Only the current generation of iMacs hat the whole device literally glued together, so that any access to internals turned into an expensive repair bill. My late 2008 Unibody MacBook hat a door which opened with a latch and gave access to the battery and hard disk. In a body that looks very much like my 2015 MB Pro. For quite a while, MB Pros might have been difficult to open, but you still could access battery, memory and SSD.
    - close04 7y ago
      > I don't think Apple has pursued design for the sake of design until very recently. Most likely. But Ive saw that the senior layers being stacked against him and his vision over the past few years. I think this was best for everyone. Consumers included.
  - lioeters 7y ago
    ..which reminds me of that article that keep resurfacing on HN, "choose boring technology". I'd think most of us would prefer practicality over style - but then again, it's hard not to fall for the attraction of "chasing the new shiny". It's the price and risk of innovation, I suppose. Edit: A few month after I got my 2013 MBP, I spilt a full cup of coffee onto it. Opened up the laptop, wiped it down, and the keyboard is still working fine. Also replaced boot drive to SSD and maxed out the memory beyond recommended specs. I doubt the 2015~ models are so "boring", repairable and extensible..
  - killjoywashere 7y ago
    Ive said that? Link please?
    - close04 7y ago
      Not in so many words but this is what reports claim [0]. The "for the sake of design" was obviously my addition because that's the real life implication of his "focus on design": great looking but less functional products. > Ive came to feel that the company had lost its focus on design as key senior roles were stacked with operations and business-focused personnel I read this as "they were less focused on design even when that design ended up costing the business". [0] https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2019/07/report-describing-jony-ives-apple-exit-gains-a-sharp-response-from-tim-cook/ https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2019/07/report-describing-jo...
- gruturo 7y ago
  Or a few weeks before, and it's exactly what resulted in his resignation. I picture it as him wanting yet one more go at salvaging the flawed design, and Cook telling him that he's overruling him because the customers' patience has absolutely run out and the company's reputation is being tarnished by this stupid, little, avoidable thing, so back to a sensible keyboard and damn the thinness. At which point Ive must have said something like, "Never, not on my watch", and that's when his watch ended.
  - angrygoat 7y ago
    If this is true, then good riddance. I spent three thousand bucks on a new Macbook and had the keyboard fail within three months, and I still get intermittent problems I can only fix using air in a can. Simply unacceptable when a Dell laptop with better specs would have been significantly cheaper.
    - jbverschoor 7y ago
      Well ivy is a designer. He sees the machines that need to work as a fashion item. His influence was too big after Steve passed away. Steve is technical and design oriented. You can’t simply make pretty things without things to actually work. Macos has been lacking so much as well. Where are the shortcuts etc? All the newer apps are pretty crap in terms of productivity.
  - philistine 7y ago
    I do not want to rain on your parade, but most rumours about Ive leaving Apple believe he had one project since the release of the first Apple Watch. That project being Apple Park. Ive has had a foot out the door for years and stayed because he got to do architecture. So while I think his ideas made the dreaded butterfly keyboard possible, I don’t believe he’s personally responsible for this fiasco.
- yoz-y 7y ago
  There is no way Apple would be able to release the 2019 MacBook Air with a new keyboard if the decision was taken just now.
  - _ph_ 7y ago
    The decision probably wasn't taken just today but some time back, but also Ive wouldn't have left over night either. So the decision to plan the new MacBook Air with a new keyboard could have triggered the exit of Ive, which has been announced recently - we don't even know when the Air is going to be updated with the keyboard.

sjwright 7y ago

> When did Apple realise the butterfly switches were not salvagable? Probably about five minutes after Jony Ive left. Somehow I doubt the timing is a coincidence.

close04 7y ago
It’s probably one of the reasons for his departure. According to Ive, Apple is no longer pursuing design for the sake of design and it’s instead going for products that work but in a more “mundane” form. And this somehow is a bad thing.
- _ph_ 7y ago
  I don't think Apple has pursued design for the sake of design until very recently. Apple devices traditionally combined great design with good functionality. The G5 iMac was not only beautiful but you could open it up in a minute with a simple screwdriver. Only the current generation of iMacs hat the whole device literally glued together, so that any access to internals turned into an expensive repair bill. My late 2008 Unibody MacBook hat a door which opened with a latch and gave access to the battery and hard disk. In a body that looks very much like my 2015 MB Pro. For quite a while, MB Pros might have been difficult to open, but you still could access battery, memory and SSD.
  - close04 7y ago
    > I don't think Apple has pursued design for the sake of design until very recently. Most likely. But Ive saw that the senior layers being stacked against him and his vision over the past few years. I think this was best for everyone. Consumers included.
- lioeters 7y ago
  ..which reminds me of that article that keep resurfacing on HN, "choose boring technology". I'd think most of us would prefer practicality over style - but then again, it's hard not to fall for the attraction of "chasing the new shiny". It's the price and risk of innovation, I suppose. Edit: A few month after I got my 2013 MBP, I spilt a full cup of coffee onto it. Opened up the laptop, wiped it down, and the keyboard is still working fine. Also replaced boot drive to SSD and maxed out the memory beyond recommended specs. I doubt the 2015~ models are so "boring", repairable and extensible..
- killjoywashere 7y ago
  Ive said that? Link please?
  - close04 7y ago
    Not in so many words but this is what reports claim [0]. The "for the sake of design" was obviously my addition because that's the real life implication of his "focus on design": great looking but less functional products. > Ive came to feel that the company had lost its focus on design as key senior roles were stacked with operations and business-focused personnel I read this as "they were less focused on design even when that design ended up costing the business". [0] https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2019/07/report-describing-jony-ives-apple-exit-gains-a-sharp-response-from-tim-cook/ https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2019/07/report-describing-jo...
gruturo 7y ago
Or a few weeks before, and it's exactly what resulted in his resignation. I picture it as him wanting yet one more go at salvaging the flawed design, and Cook telling him that he's overruling him because the customers' patience has absolutely run out and the company's reputation is being tarnished by this stupid, little, avoidable thing, so back to a sensible keyboard and damn the thinness. At which point Ive must have said something like, "Never, not on my watch", and that's when his watch ended.
- angrygoat 7y ago
  If this is true, then good riddance. I spent three thousand bucks on a new Macbook and had the keyboard fail within three months, and I still get intermittent problems I can only fix using air in a can. Simply unacceptable when a Dell laptop with better specs would have been significantly cheaper.
  - jbverschoor 7y ago
    Well ivy is a designer. He sees the machines that need to work as a fashion item. His influence was too big after Steve passed away. Steve is technical and design oriented. You can’t simply make pretty things without things to actually work. Macos has been lacking so much as well. Where are the shortcuts etc? All the newer apps are pretty crap in terms of productivity.
- philistine 7y ago
  I do not want to rain on your parade, but most rumours about Ive leaving Apple believe he had one project since the release of the first Apple Watch. That project being Apple Park. Ive has had a foot out the door for years and stayed because he got to do architecture. So while I think his ideas made the dreaded butterfly keyboard possible, I don’t believe he’s personally responsible for this fiasco.
yoz-y 7y ago
There is no way Apple would be able to release the 2019 MacBook Air with a new keyboard if the decision was taken just now.
- _ph_ 7y ago
  The decision probably wasn't taken just today but some time back, but also Ive wouldn't have left over night either. So the decision to plan the new MacBook Air with a new keyboard could have triggered the exit of Ive, which has been announced recently - we don't even know when the Air is going to be updated with the keyboard.