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Finally! It took four years to admit there is something wrong. And one more year to change upcoming laptops. - It‘s unbelievable how this crap could be released

Finally! It took four years to admit there is something wrong. And one more year to change upcoming laptops. - It‘s unbelievable how this crap could be released. Coming from a ThinkPad to a MBP in 2015 I was even disappointed by the keyboard of the MBP 2015. Then switching to a MBP 2018 I was shocked how much worse things could get (for the sake of thinness?)

kossae 7y ago
What’s wrong with the 2015? That’s the last good version of the keyboard IMO.
- geolgau 7y ago
  It's not as good as those on Thinkpads.
  - rimliu 7y ago
    Yes, better.
  - DerDangDerDang 7y ago
    I much preferred the keyboard on my 2015 MBP to that on my 2018 Thinkpad. The newer Apples keyboards (including the wireless ones) are crap, I agree.
  - sbuk 7y ago
    Yeah, well, that's just, like, your opinion, man.
  - isostatic 7y ago
    Which thinkpads? From 2003? From 2010? From today?
    - philliphaydon 7y ago
      I got an X1 Extreme. Keyboard is amazing. Didn’t know these keyboards were so much better than any MAC I owned until January this year.
      - teekert 7y ago
        Dat touchpad though...
        philliphaydon 7y ago
        I don’t mind it. I use the keyboard 95% of the time. Then touchpad much less. While Apple has the best touchpad. Keyboard is more important. IMO.
      - isostatic 7y ago
        Interesting. Did you use more traditional thinkpad keyboards (back when IBM owned them)?
        philliphaydon 7y ago
        I think I used a ThinkPad back in 1997 when my Uncle had a laptop. But aside from that possibility I don’t believe I’ve ever touched one until beginning of this year.
    - DocTomoe 7y ago
      They will take my T520 from my cold, dead hands. That was the last one that came with an actually useful keyboard... ... and thanks to Linux, it runs like on the first day.
      - CountSessine 7y ago
        I have a T520 at home as my linux box. At work I use a 2015 MacBook Pro. I don't know. I don't find the T520's keyboard to be any better than the MBP's. The differences in key placement are much more noticeable than any difference in key shape, travel, or response. Am I missing something? ... and thanks to Linux, it runs like on the first day. The integrated Intel GPU in my T520 is stuck on XDDM and never got an updated WDDM driver. So it can't run a modern version of Windows anyways.
- ransom1538 7y ago
  If you have a mint 2015 mac pro 15" with box and battery -- I predict it will be going up in value.
  - anonfunction 7y ago
    There's a good chance you can have the battery replaced as part of the ongoing recall. https://support.apple.com/15-inch-macbook-pro-battery-recall https://support.apple.com/15-inch-macbook-pro-battery-recall
- yomly 7y ago
  Funny there's a conversation about the ThinkPad 2015 going on - my x240 was the generation that had the buttonless trackpad (which screwed the trackpoint). Credit to Lenovo, they backtracked within one generation, but I am not nearly so rich as to be able to change laptops that often so it was a costly design "innovation" to me on their end!
  - abbe_k 7y ago
    You can buy a trackpad with buttons to replace it. It is compatible with the X250 trackpad I think. Or was this only the case with T440s and T450s?
- MrMorden 7y ago
  The last Apple laptop with a keyboard of similar quality to current ThinkPads was the G4 AlBook (2003).
whywhywhywhy 7y ago
> Finally! It took four years to admit there is something wrong. And one more year to change upcoming laptops I think they admitted something was wrong as soon as they created the replacement program, it's just they have been completely unwilling to alter their planned product schedule to fix it early. When they create a laptop design they expect to be able to ship the same basic chassis design for 3-4 years and in this design the keyboard and chassis are so entwined they're literally bolted together. We're getting a new non-Pro design revision with it fixed right on schedule and the Pro isn't scheduled to redesign till next year so we get the fix then. Both these fixes could have been in the market 1-2 years ago if they company truly wanted it. They just decided it either wasn't worth the money, or wasn't worth changing their cadence to fix it early. Just don't think they have much respect for their Mac customers anymore and know they'll stick around.
- jakobegger 7y ago
  > Both these fixes could have been in the market 1-2 years ago if they company truly wanted it. How much development time does Apple need for a new laptop design? I think it takes them about 2 years. So if you say they could have had fixed keyboards in 2017, they would have had to start designing them in 2015, which is a year before the 2016 models even went on sale. My assumption is that they only realized that the butterfly switches are unsalvageable after the July 2017 upgrade failed to fix the problems, so they started working on new Macbook designs with scissor switches in late 2017, which will be released in 2019/2020.
  - xienze 7y ago
    I don’t think the parent was implying that it took them 4 years to design a keyboard but that once Apple made a new design they expected it to last a minimum of 3 to 4 years. So they could’ve fixed it earlier but they insisted on getting their 3-4 years out of the original design.
- justforyou 7y ago
  >> Just don't think they have much respect for their Mac customers anymore and know they'll stick around. Jusdging from the irrational enthusiasm in most of this thread, it looks like you are right.
onion2k 7y ago
In code the reason we don't do wholesale rewrites of complicated systems very often is because while there are bugs in the current system they're known quantities; going back to the drawing board and starting from scratch results in a newer, better, but unknown system with unknown bugs. That might be worse. It's a massive risk. This is true for Apple's new keyboard too. We can't automatically assume it's better than the existing one, or that it has no issues. It's an unknown. For all we know a new keyboard might be even worse than the current one. Hopefully Apple will have learned from their mistakes but whether or not they've corrected all the problems or introduced new problems is something we can't know. It's good that Apple appear to be listening and are trying to fix the problem (if that's the reason for the new keyboard) but I won't be rushing out to buy one for a while.
- thijsvandien 7y ago
  Nobody said they need to start from scratch. This failure of a keyboard already proved your point. Simply going back to the previous design and iterating from that would have been a massive improvement.
WAHa_06x36 7y ago
The problem with the design is that it breaks, not that it is otherwise bad. I prefer it over the older design, as do many others.
- sa1 7y ago
  Yep. I find myself unable to use my personal MBP 2015 after using the 2018 MBP for work. The feel is just so much better. The reliability is the issue(though I haven’t faced any issues yet).
- Fnoord 7y ago
  That is the main problem with it. * It breaks. * It makes a lot of noise. * It has almost no travel. I really dislike #2 and #3 but to their credit it is thin (which I don't care much about). You can argue about #2 and #3 being subjective which is fair enough (the same is true for it being thin). However #1 is not subjective, and doesn't occur in a "few isolated cases". It is a proven design issue. What I'd furthermore argue though is that #1 and #2 and #3 are together the sole result of going for thinness. After all, the previous keyboards worked great (and I owned 4 MBPs of the 2010-2015 range). Meanwhile, the prices of the MBPs have only increased which adds insult to injury! There's this saying, "if it ain't broken, don't fix it". At the same time there's "release early, release often". The first version of the iPhone had serious disadvantages. Apple didn't release AirPower. These each had their minus. However Apple has failed to address this specific minus. We've been beta testing this feature enough. It is time to admit the design flaw, and move on (but don't Osbourne the current series).
  - WAHa_06x36 7y ago
    It may make a bit more noise than the older one, but it certainly does not make "a lot" of noise. And the short travel is also not a problem, just a personal preference. As I said, I much prefer it, as do many others.
    - Fnoord 7y ago
      It is a lot of noise compared to my flaretech red switches. It is a lot of noise compared to my current and previous MBPs are previous ThinkPads. Also, I even have my TouchPad on silent (I prefer than over the < 2015 versions even though the 2014 have less design flaws). You prefer it, I don't. Many others prefer it, many other's don't. Like the touchbar, it was a controversial change. But if it then turns out to break regularly, then it is better to return to the previous design.
ragerino 7y ago
I love my Carbon X1, especially because of it's excellent keyboard. Unfortunatly the same can not be said about it's touchpad which causes constantly accidental clicks while typing. A combination of Lenovo's keyboard and Apple's touchpad would make a strong combination.

kossae 7y ago

What’s wrong with the 2015? That’s the last good version of the keyboard IMO.

geolgau 7y ago
It's not as good as those on Thinkpads.
- rimliu 7y ago
  Yes, better.
- DerDangDerDang 7y ago
  I much preferred the keyboard on my 2015 MBP to that on my 2018 Thinkpad. The newer Apples keyboards (including the wireless ones) are crap, I agree.
- sbuk 7y ago
  Yeah, well, that's just, like, your opinion, man.
- isostatic 7y ago
  Which thinkpads? From 2003? From 2010? From today?
  - philliphaydon 7y ago
    I got an X1 Extreme. Keyboard is amazing. Didn’t know these keyboards were so much better than any MAC I owned until January this year.
    - teekert 7y ago
      Dat touchpad though...
      - philliphaydon 7y ago
        I don’t mind it. I use the keyboard 95% of the time. Then touchpad much less. While Apple has the best touchpad. Keyboard is more important. IMO.
    - isostatic 7y ago
      Interesting. Did you use more traditional thinkpad keyboards (back when IBM owned them)?
      - philliphaydon 7y ago
        I think I used a ThinkPad back in 1997 when my Uncle had a laptop. But aside from that possibility I don’t believe I’ve ever touched one until beginning of this year.
  - DocTomoe 7y ago
    They will take my T520 from my cold, dead hands. That was the last one that came with an actually useful keyboard... ... and thanks to Linux, it runs like on the first day.
    - CountSessine 7y ago
      I have a T520 at home as my linux box. At work I use a 2015 MacBook Pro. I don't know. I don't find the T520's keyboard to be any better than the MBP's. The differences in key placement are much more noticeable than any difference in key shape, travel, or response. Am I missing something? ... and thanks to Linux, it runs like on the first day. The integrated Intel GPU in my T520 is stuck on XDDM and never got an updated WDDM driver. So it can't run a modern version of Windows anyways.
ransom1538 7y ago
If you have a mint 2015 mac pro 15" with box and battery -- I predict it will be going up in value.
- anonfunction 7y ago
  There's a good chance you can have the battery replaced as part of the ongoing recall. https://support.apple.com/15-inch-macbook-pro-battery-recall https://support.apple.com/15-inch-macbook-pro-battery-recall
yomly 7y ago
Funny there's a conversation about the ThinkPad 2015 going on - my x240 was the generation that had the buttonless trackpad (which screwed the trackpoint). Credit to Lenovo, they backtracked within one generation, but I am not nearly so rich as to be able to change laptops that often so it was a costly design "innovation" to me on their end!
- abbe_k 7y ago
  You can buy a trackpad with buttons to replace it. It is compatible with the X250 trackpad I think. Or was this only the case with T440s and T450s?
MrMorden 7y ago
The last Apple laptop with a keyboard of similar quality to current ThinkPads was the G4 AlBook (2003).

whywhywhywhy 7y ago

> Finally! It took four years to admit there is something wrong. And one more year to change upcoming laptops I think they admitted something was wrong as soon as they created the replacement program, it's just they have been completely unwilling to alter their planned product schedule to fix it early. When they create a laptop design they expect to be able to ship the same basic chassis design for 3-4 years and in this design the keyboard and chassis are so entwined they're literally bolted together. We're getting a new non-Pro design revision with it fixed right on schedule and the Pro isn't scheduled to redesign till next year so we get the fix then. Both these fixes could have been in the market 1-2 years ago if they company truly wanted it. They just decided it either wasn't worth the money, or wasn't worth changing their cadence to fix it early. Just don't think they have much respect for their Mac customers anymore and know they'll stick around.

jakobegger 7y ago
> Both these fixes could have been in the market 1-2 years ago if they company truly wanted it. How much development time does Apple need for a new laptop design? I think it takes them about 2 years. So if you say they could have had fixed keyboards in 2017, they would have had to start designing them in 2015, which is a year before the 2016 models even went on sale. My assumption is that they only realized that the butterfly switches are unsalvageable after the July 2017 upgrade failed to fix the problems, so they started working on new Macbook designs with scissor switches in late 2017, which will be released in 2019/2020.
- xienze 7y ago
  I don’t think the parent was implying that it took them 4 years to design a keyboard but that once Apple made a new design they expected it to last a minimum of 3 to 4 years. So they could’ve fixed it earlier but they insisted on getting their 3-4 years out of the original design.
justforyou 7y ago
>> Just don't think they have much respect for their Mac customers anymore and know they'll stick around. Jusdging from the irrational enthusiasm in most of this thread, it looks like you are right.

onion2k 7y ago

In code the reason we don't do wholesale rewrites of complicated systems very often is because while there are bugs in the current system they're known quantities; going back to the drawing board and starting from scratch results in a newer, better, but unknown system with unknown bugs. That might be worse. It's a massive risk. This is true for Apple's new keyboard too. We can't automatically assume it's better than the existing one, or that it has no issues. It's an unknown. For all we know a new keyboard might be even worse than the current one. Hopefully Apple will have learned from their mistakes but whether or not they've corrected all the problems or introduced new problems is something we can't know. It's good that Apple appear to be listening and are trying to fix the problem (if that's the reason for the new keyboard) but I won't be rushing out to buy one for a while.

thijsvandien 7y ago
Nobody said they need to start from scratch. This failure of a keyboard already proved your point. Simply going back to the previous design and iterating from that would have been a massive improvement.

WAHa_06x36 7y ago

The problem with the design is that it breaks, not that it is otherwise bad. I prefer it over the older design, as do many others.

sa1 7y ago
Yep. I find myself unable to use my personal MBP 2015 after using the 2018 MBP for work. The feel is just so much better. The reliability is the issue(though I haven’t faced any issues yet).
Fnoord 7y ago
That is the main problem with it. * It breaks. * It makes a lot of noise. * It has almost no travel. I really dislike #2 and #3 but to their credit it is thin (which I don't care much about). You can argue about #2 and #3 being subjective which is fair enough (the same is true for it being thin). However #1 is not subjective, and doesn't occur in a "few isolated cases". It is a proven design issue. What I'd furthermore argue though is that #1 and #2 and #3 are together the sole result of going for thinness. After all, the previous keyboards worked great (and I owned 4 MBPs of the 2010-2015 range). Meanwhile, the prices of the MBPs have only increased which adds insult to injury! There's this saying, "if it ain't broken, don't fix it". At the same time there's "release early, release often". The first version of the iPhone had serious disadvantages. Apple didn't release AirPower. These each had their minus. However Apple has failed to address this specific minus. We've been beta testing this feature enough. It is time to admit the design flaw, and move on (but don't Osbourne the current series).
- WAHa_06x36 7y ago
  It may make a bit more noise than the older one, but it certainly does not make "a lot" of noise. And the short travel is also not a problem, just a personal preference. As I said, I much prefer it, as do many others.
  - Fnoord 7y ago
    It is a lot of noise compared to my flaretech red switches. It is a lot of noise compared to my current and previous MBPs are previous ThinkPads. Also, I even have my TouchPad on silent (I prefer than over the < 2015 versions even though the 2014 have less design flaws). You prefer it, I don't. Many others prefer it, many other's don't. Like the touchbar, it was a controversial change. But if it then turns out to break regularly, then it is better to return to the previous design.

ragerino 7y ago

I love my Carbon X1, especially because of it's excellent keyboard. Unfortunatly the same can not be said about it's touchpad which causes constantly accidental clicks while typing. A combination of Lenovo's keyboard and Apple's touchpad would make a strong combination.