5 ms·

It's more complicated than this. I listened, I cared, for years. Then I stopped. How can I continue caring when everyone around me exploits the way things are a

• coldtea 7y ago
  >It's more complicated than this. I listened, I cared, for years. Then I stopped. How can I continue caring when everyone around me exploits the way things are and gets ahead because of it? Through the magic of principles? Life should not be about getting ahead, but about doing what's right.
  • brighton36 7y ago
    What is right? How can a person know? I don't think that principles are much more than oral tradition. And many of us don't have that in the modern world.
    • coldtea 7y ago
      >What is right? How can a person know? We watch, we experience, we learn, we read, we ask around, we interact. Same as with any other thing. If I stole your wallet you'd immediately knew it wasn't right, wouldn't you? >I don't think that principles are much more than oral tradition. Well, I don't think oral tradition is not a good basis to base principles on. It implies historical experience, communal values, the test of time, and so on. It might not be perfect, but then again, it need not be.
      • brighton36 7y ago
        I would know it was theft. I would assume it was right relative to the goals of the thief, albeit not myself, or the statutory codes. Right is a measure of social validation, or ideological compliance. (Both of which are transmitted via oral tradition) I agree that oral tradition is not a good basis to base principles on, lol. Welcome to my world.
    • losteric 7y ago
      Well, I have principles based on logically reasoning backward from a subjective utopian ideal. No oral tradition or religious dogma here. "What is right" and "what is wrong" are good questions - ask yourself that repeatedly, over years, and you can find your principles too. "Why is X right/wrong?" are also helpful :)
      • brighton36 7y ago
        what is the utopian ideal? Did you read it somewhere? (Was it communicated orally?) With the utopian ideal being subjective... it does seem fairly arbitrary. I don't generally see right as being useful in any way. It's unnuanced. And seems to revert to a tradition of some kind or another.
        • losteric 7y ago
          My (not "the") utopian ideal is one that actively minimizes suffering of sentient life... aiming for zero socially inflicted suffering (war, famine, coercion, etc) and in harmony with the environment (sustainable environmental exploitation). Working backwards involves details of socioeconomic structures and so on... but that's my ideal in a nutshell. It is subjective. I said that from the beginning. The value of strong principles is being able to make decisions with intent and confidence. Unless you consult an RNG for every decision, you still live by a set of principles... emergent, unexplored, uninformed ones, but principles nonetheless. Why do you work? Why do you do that work? Heck, why do you do laundry?
    • jazzyjackson 7y ago
      I mean there's a whole book on the subject, it's just that most modern folk cast it off as fairy tales for ignorant superstitious people. But the more I read about it, the more I feel like we have the same problems and neuroticism as people did in Jesus' time.
  • enraged_camel 7y ago
    >>Through the magic of principles? Life should not be about getting ahead, but about doing what's right. What if our value system equates "right" with "things that help me get ahead"?
    • brighton36 7y ago
      Yep!
• MandieD 7y ago
  My own personal change to a lower level of consumption is driven by a modified form of greed: spend less, invest more, retire earlier. Even if my investments aren’t as profitable as I’d hoped, my lower level of consumption is still going to be easier to sustain on whatever income I have than a stereotypical German one, let alone the middle-class American level I grew up with. Practical example: the lawn of our townhouse looks awful. Instead of doing the very spendy thing of hiring a gardening service to fix it, or the still spendy thing of replanting with lawn grass, I’m doing a bit of research to find something that won’t require much ongoing maintenance, will improve the soil (nitrogen-fixing), and will make pollinating insects happy.
  • rangibaby 7y ago
    Clover
    • MandieD 7y ago
      That’s pretty much the conclusion I’ve reached; now just narrowing down which species (or mix thereof) will make things better in a year or two but won’t be a complete PITA to deal with if I later want to take the next step and grow food.
      • rangibaby 7y ago
        I have had success growing veges in small pots then moving them to my clover garden after pulling patches of clover out where I want to plant. In my experience that slows it down for long enough for the plant to get established. Clover provides enough benefits to your soil and ecosystem of your garden that I think it’s a net win in any case. Another ground cover I am experimenting with is strawberries. I let them get established (planted January) then added some clover and wildflower seeds in March. The strawberry plants are still growing and haven’t been outcompeted at all. That’s my experience anyway. I’m just a hobby “natural” gardener so I might be messing up without realizing it.
    • foxhop 7y ago
      Clover is a good idea but it also needs to be cut or ate eventually. Worth a try though. When I mow my lawn I avoid mowing my small but growing natural clover patches. When I do mow, all the clippings become mulch for my veggies, or mixed with leaves to compost.
• acomjean 7y ago
  I think you just described the “tragedy of the commons”. It’s where people’s self interest is contrary to the groups intrest. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tragedy_of_the_commons https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tragedy_of_the_commons
  • VvR-Ox 7y ago
    Exactly. That's why I don't think the "social score" idea from China is so stupid after all. I hate this egoistic, pseudo-individualistic lifestyle that is sold here in the west just because it helps people to feel like they'd really be free. It's a big lie that "the capital" uses for marketing purposes and a common sense seems to be on the loss here. Consequently we'll all suffer from this egoism if we don't find a solution in this century (perhaps even in the 1st half of it). But this criticism is always dismissed quickly with the "communism club" that indoctrinated people who don't think for themselves love to use.
    • Der_Einzige 7y ago
      Egoism is not bad - it's inevitable. Abrahamic values teach this literal self-hatred and "humans as innately evil" line but it has no basis in reality. See the work of Max Stirner on a rehabilitation of egoism and why a union of egoists (differing from a society only in the voluntary nature of the association) isn't synonymous with "egoistic psudo-individualism"
      • eternalban 7y ago
        > Abrahamic values teach this literal self-hatred Have you actually ever read the "Abrahamic" scriptures? How about the Hindu scripture, say the Gita? Any Sutras? Ego Sublimation is not "self-hatred". It is the next "inevitable" step.
        • VvR-Ox 7y ago
          I think so, too. There's just not enough room and resources for a world full of egoists who all want to be snow flakes.
• perfunctory 7y ago
  > I listened, I cared, for years. Then I stopped. Please don't take my comment as a personal attack. I am really wondering if you could elaborate on what you mean by "cared" and "stopped"? From my own experience, once you make some profound (permanent) changes to your lifestyle it's not even that easy to just stop and go back any more.
  • foobar1962 7y ago
    > How can I continue caring when everyone around me exploits the way things are and gets ahead because of it? Nice guys finish last. The tragedy of the commons. Etc.
• EGreg 7y ago
  Guys, people won’t give up eating meat unless you give them alternatives that are as good or better. The Impossible Burger might do more to save the world than all journalists put together. Now we need alternatives to non-biodegradable plastic, and fossil fuels. We have them! We could have had them much earlier if goverment got involved. Other kinds of plastic. Electric cars. We need alternatives to the lazy pesticides we use. We are all for the short win. Our culture is likened to instant gratification children, and we are borrowing on a credit card that our children and grandchildren will be stuck with. The bill always comes due!