4 ms·

It's because of the "closed garden circle jerks" aka social media. Before social media, most people were consuming similar media, so counterpoints could make a

It's because of the "closed garden circle jerks" aka social media. Before social media, most people were consuming similar media, so counterpoints could make a difference. Nowadays algorithms decide what you would like to see/hear so only people that are already against trump are seeing those. And this is not just websites. Metric and tracking got so much better that even traditional media, can target their viewership better.

taurath 7y ago
I think that's the easy answer but I think it may not be the whole story. Fox news, conservative radio, etc have existed for a while. Bubbles have also always existed, and yes they've gotten bigger - but at the same time, there's been a big social shift that's happened at the same time this has been going on. The Obama era marked a change to progressives being the social establishment (not to be confused with economic establishment). Suddenly the previous mockers are now the cheerleaders, and corporate america dives right in with them on the equality/diversity train. Then Trump comes in, and somehow wins with a secret weapon - if he acts like a crazy person all the time, the mocking will get so loud, AND be so ubiquitous it'll just turn to static in everyone's minds. Suddenly the biggest political weapon the left has to win over independents isn't very useful. I'm not concerned with the "base" of both parties - Trump hasn't dropped below 40% in a while, partly out of polarization, but also partly that there is a base he has, and that base is opposition to the left, who soundly beat them from Clinton to Obama culturally. This might be why despite having the house, senate, and white house the republicans could keep telling themselves they were the underdogs - culturally they are, and continue to be. So there will still be independents who are on the side of fighting the "progressive hegemony", and they by default go to trump. Instead of the skater punk in high school cussing and spitting in front of the nuns, its the kid on the computer intentionally calling someone the wrong pronouns.
- pjc50 7y ago
  > its the kid on the computer intentionally calling someone the wrong pronouns. Today this, tomorrow goading someone (such as a trans person) into suicide, the next day egging on the person who says they're going to shoot up a synagogue. The punk confronting nuns is doing so from the bottom of the power hierarchy, and achieving their freedom not at the expense of anyone else. The modern alt-right culture is looking for targets and hostile to anyone who asks for respect. A big difference.
  - taurath 7y ago
    I quite agree that the “punching down” thing is different this time. The progressives haven’t consolidated yet - especially economically. The white cis male behind the computer screen definitely has the economic higher ground (or, his socioeracial status does). But, critically, I think they are punching “up” in terms of social status. I don’t think, and we should all hope, that most people uncomfortable with pronouns are also those that egg on a synagogue shooter. There are levels here. Who’s going to give them a place to belong first?
    - pjc50 7y ago
      > most people uncomfortable with pronouns Interesting way to phrase it. Taken literally it's absurd - obviously people aren't allergic to saying "he" and "she". Presumably you mean chosen pronouns. Where it comes down to a matter of someone asking for a tiny bit of respect. Some respond to that graciously, a lot of people go along with it indifferently, but a few regard it as a massive outrage to be asked to be respectful towards a stranger. They escalate it; they raise it to a "me or them" issue, and are surprised that some people choose to exclude them so that they can include trans people instead. > Who’s going to give them a place to belong first? What does this mean? Does it mean a place where necessarily trans people can't belong? Certainly in the UK it's not a question of "belonging", most of the newspapers and large sections of all political parties have joined in the panic over trans people. Being anti-trans is tragically mainstream.
      - taurath 7y ago
        > Interesting way to phrase it. Interesting (and very icy) way to respond. I think you’re making assumptions about me here :) I can think of more examples than those you’ve given. It can be people afraid to address people at all, because they’ve been hammered for getting it wrong in the past. Some figure it out, and some respond emotionally, reactively. It digs them a bigger hole. They decide that trans people and their allies are assholes, or bullies, and are holding the gun of social estrangement to their head. This isn’t the fault of the person who just wants to be respected as themselves - they’ve almost certainly experienced a metric fuckton of discrimination, lack of understanding, and hey maybe they’re just having a bad day and tired of fucking explaining it all the time, and then some ally who absolutely wants to have an argument right now starts brandishing a quote tweet. All this shit can happen without them ever even knowing each other’s name. There are a lot of people (I’m thinking small town high school here) who have never even interacted with a trans person irl (IE - none of them are out). I just would want people to recognize - chosen pronouns just went from being a not even aware of in public thing to aware. It’s natural for people to be confused, or lack empathy at first. I get frustrated and say fuck a lot when I have to relearn hotkeys when I switch IDEs at work. If someone didn’t get the memo, assume goodwill, just like you are in this conversation. I know all about TERFs. Thankfully I’ve yet to experience one irl. > What does this mean? Does it mean a place where necessarily trans people can't belong? It means it’s better for people to get better understanding than be welcomed with open arms by nazis. To the latter question - no.

taurath 7y ago

I think that's the easy answer but I think it may not be the whole story. Fox news, conservative radio, etc have existed for a while. Bubbles have also always existed, and yes they've gotten bigger - but at the same time, there's been a big social shift that's happened at the same time this has been going on. The Obama era marked a change to progressives being the social establishment (not to be confused with economic establishment). Suddenly the previous mockers are now the cheerleaders, and corporate america dives right in with them on the equality/diversity train. Then Trump comes in, and somehow wins with a secret weapon - if he acts like a crazy person all the time, the mocking will get so loud, AND be so ubiquitous it'll just turn to static in everyone's minds. Suddenly the biggest political weapon the left has to win over independents isn't very useful. I'm not concerned with the "base" of both parties - Trump hasn't dropped below 40% in a while, partly out of polarization, but also partly that there is a base he has, and that base is opposition to the left, who soundly beat them from Clinton to Obama culturally. This might be why despite having the house, senate, and white house the republicans could keep telling themselves they were the underdogs - culturally they are, and continue to be. So there will still be independents who are on the side of fighting the "progressive hegemony", and they by default go to trump. Instead of the skater punk in high school cussing and spitting in front of the nuns, its the kid on the computer intentionally calling someone the wrong pronouns.

pjc50 7y ago
> its the kid on the computer intentionally calling someone the wrong pronouns. Today this, tomorrow goading someone (such as a trans person) into suicide, the next day egging on the person who says they're going to shoot up a synagogue. The punk confronting nuns is doing so from the bottom of the power hierarchy, and achieving their freedom not at the expense of anyone else. The modern alt-right culture is looking for targets and hostile to anyone who asks for respect. A big difference.
- taurath 7y ago
  I quite agree that the “punching down” thing is different this time. The progressives haven’t consolidated yet - especially economically. The white cis male behind the computer screen definitely has the economic higher ground (or, his socioeracial status does). But, critically, I think they are punching “up” in terms of social status. I don’t think, and we should all hope, that most people uncomfortable with pronouns are also those that egg on a synagogue shooter. There are levels here. Who’s going to give them a place to belong first?
  - pjc50 7y ago
    > most people uncomfortable with pronouns Interesting way to phrase it. Taken literally it's absurd - obviously people aren't allergic to saying "he" and "she". Presumably you mean chosen pronouns. Where it comes down to a matter of someone asking for a tiny bit of respect. Some respond to that graciously, a lot of people go along with it indifferently, but a few regard it as a massive outrage to be asked to be respectful towards a stranger. They escalate it; they raise it to a "me or them" issue, and are surprised that some people choose to exclude them so that they can include trans people instead. > Who’s going to give them a place to belong first? What does this mean? Does it mean a place where necessarily trans people can't belong? Certainly in the UK it's not a question of "belonging", most of the newspapers and large sections of all political parties have joined in the panic over trans people. Being anti-trans is tragically mainstream.
    - taurath 7y ago
      > Interesting way to phrase it. Interesting (and very icy) way to respond. I think you’re making assumptions about me here :) I can think of more examples than those you’ve given. It can be people afraid to address people at all, because they’ve been hammered for getting it wrong in the past. Some figure it out, and some respond emotionally, reactively. It digs them a bigger hole. They decide that trans people and their allies are assholes, or bullies, and are holding the gun of social estrangement to their head. This isn’t the fault of the person who just wants to be respected as themselves - they’ve almost certainly experienced a metric fuckton of discrimination, lack of understanding, and hey maybe they’re just having a bad day and tired of fucking explaining it all the time, and then some ally who absolutely wants to have an argument right now starts brandishing a quote tweet. All this shit can happen without them ever even knowing each other’s name. There are a lot of people (I’m thinking small town high school here) who have never even interacted with a trans person irl (IE - none of them are out). I just would want people to recognize - chosen pronouns just went from being a not even aware of in public thing to aware. It’s natural for people to be confused, or lack empathy at first. I get frustrated and say fuck a lot when I have to relearn hotkeys when I switch IDEs at work. If someone didn’t get the memo, assume goodwill, just like you are in this conversation. I know all about TERFs. Thankfully I’ve yet to experience one irl. > What does this mean? Does it mean a place where necessarily trans people can't belong? It means it’s better for people to get better understanding than be welcomed with open arms by nazis. To the latter question - no.