5 ms·

This is such an interesting perspective. Though she's never said it, I suspect my grandmother (96! this year) sees vegetarianism the same way— people with means

This is such an interesting perspective. Though she's never said it, I suspect my grandmother (96! this year) sees vegetarianism the same way— people with means could afford meat, whereas poorer folks simply couldn't. Intentionally choosing to limit or eliminate meat consumption just boggles her mind. This perspective kind of boggles mine. I hadn't though to extrapolate that position to other topics!

nerdponx 7y ago
In my understanding, this kind of thinking is how the American diet came to be so heavy in meat, sugar, salt, and fat, with such enormous portions.
- lordgrenville 7y ago
  Surely that's just evolution/biology? People will naturally tend to eat bigger portions, and more energy-dense foods.
steanne 7y ago
what food is easily available to the poor and hence looked down upon has changed significantly over the years. people used to be embarassed to have to eat lobster.
- Gibbon1 7y ago
  Friend of mine has a masters in Medieval sociology. He said one of the places he studied there was a law that you couldn't feed your servants salmon more than X days a week.
  - molmalo 7y ago
    Some time ago I watched this video: What Did Peasants Eat in Medieval Times? (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WeVcey0Ng-w https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WeVcey0Ng-w) I was surprised to learn that some food we nowdays consider expensive was very low-class back then, and viceversa, as availability and costumes changed over time. Salmon being one of the examples. I recommend that series of videos if you like this kind of stuff.
    - Gibbon1 7y ago
      My mother said her 1958 cookbook she got as a wedding gift suggested that 'budget conscious' (meaning poor) housewives could consider cheaper types of meat like salmon. My ex's family if I can tell were immediately descended from impoverished sharecroppers. Grandma picked tobacco when she was a little girl. Her family when they had money ate badly cooked steak a couple of times a week. Definitely a class thing. My family being pretty much solidly middle class and from California that sort of thing just wasn't.
ijidak 7y ago
There is a story that made the rounds on HN maybe 3 weeks ago about beriberi in the Japanese armed forces caused because soldiers didn't want to eat brown rice as white rice (which is less nutritious) was a sign of wealth. This is just one of many reasons that it seems it will be difficult to get people in developing countries to forego the western lifestyle for the sake of the environment. It's hard to get humans to save their immediate self, if it requires foregoing a class symbol, talk less of something as relatively esoteric as the weather.
flukus 7y ago
Where has she lived in that time? Many her age were very affected by the great depression along WW2 and it's aftermath, they learned to be very frugal. The one's I've met around that age bracket seem to see meat as only a small part of a meal with lot's of roast veggies and the like on the side, contrasted with the more modern expectation that the meat is the main course with the sides being much smaller. Manual labor and physical strength was also much more important in her day and meat is important for that.
vinay_ys 7y ago
From drying clothes to getting the right nutrition, there are clearly superior and inferior ways to do get any particular result. But of course people don't have the knowledge/skills to figure it out for themselves and come to that judgement on their own. Instead, they use monetary value (price etc) associated a particular method as a proxy for superior/inferior. Once you are down this slippery slope, it is easy to jump the next few steps of this lazy-yet-practical logical staircase that leads to class hierarchy in society and what outwardly behavior brings class status in your society etc. Since these implicit logical models are taught and reinforced generationally, only generational shifts can break the cycle and that makes it hard to change the stereotypes.

nerdponx 7y ago

In my understanding, this kind of thinking is how the American diet came to be so heavy in meat, sugar, salt, and fat, with such enormous portions.

lordgrenville 7y ago
Surely that's just evolution/biology? People will naturally tend to eat bigger portions, and more energy-dense foods.

steanne 7y ago

what food is easily available to the poor and hence looked down upon has changed significantly over the years. people used to be embarassed to have to eat lobster.

Gibbon1 7y ago
Friend of mine has a masters in Medieval sociology. He said one of the places he studied there was a law that you couldn't feed your servants salmon more than X days a week.
- molmalo 7y ago
  Some time ago I watched this video: What Did Peasants Eat in Medieval Times? (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WeVcey0Ng-w https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WeVcey0Ng-w) I was surprised to learn that some food we nowdays consider expensive was very low-class back then, and viceversa, as availability and costumes changed over time. Salmon being one of the examples. I recommend that series of videos if you like this kind of stuff.
  - Gibbon1 7y ago
    My mother said her 1958 cookbook she got as a wedding gift suggested that 'budget conscious' (meaning poor) housewives could consider cheaper types of meat like salmon. My ex's family if I can tell were immediately descended from impoverished sharecroppers. Grandma picked tobacco when she was a little girl. Her family when they had money ate badly cooked steak a couple of times a week. Definitely a class thing. My family being pretty much solidly middle class and from California that sort of thing just wasn't.

ijidak 7y ago

There is a story that made the rounds on HN maybe 3 weeks ago about beriberi in the Japanese armed forces caused because soldiers didn't want to eat brown rice as white rice (which is less nutritious) was a sign of wealth. This is just one of many reasons that it seems it will be difficult to get people in developing countries to forego the western lifestyle for the sake of the environment. It's hard to get humans to save their immediate self, if it requires foregoing a class symbol, talk less of something as relatively esoteric as the weather.

flukus 7y ago

Where has she lived in that time? Many her age were very affected by the great depression along WW2 and it's aftermath, they learned to be very frugal. The one's I've met around that age bracket seem to see meat as only a small part of a meal with lot's of roast veggies and the like on the side, contrasted with the more modern expectation that the meat is the main course with the sides being much smaller. Manual labor and physical strength was also much more important in her day and meat is important for that.

vinay_ys 7y ago

From drying clothes to getting the right nutrition, there are clearly superior and inferior ways to do get any particular result. But of course people don't have the knowledge/skills to figure it out for themselves and come to that judgement on their own. Instead, they use monetary value (price etc) associated a particular method as a proxy for superior/inferior. Once you are down this slippery slope, it is easy to jump the next few steps of this lazy-yet-practical logical staircase that leads to class hierarchy in society and what outwardly behavior brings class status in your society etc. Since these implicit logical models are taught and reinforced generationally, only generational shifts can break the cycle and that makes it hard to change the stereotypes.