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"Recipients of emails cannot opt out....I would love to find better technology to solve this problem." How about...put a notification of tracking in emails tha

by harryh 7y ago

"Recipients of emails cannot opt out....I would love to find better technology to solve this problem." How about...put a notification of tracking in emails that contain it rather than making it invisible and then include an opt out link? That seems....not hard.

crispinb 7y ago
Honesty? This is tech. This is business. You're speaking a foreign language to both.
derefr 7y ago
That allows you to opt out only after having had your first open tracked. Presumably a technological solution would allow the client to opt out of even that first pixel (hopefully while not having to opt out of displaying non-tracking images.)
- harryh 7y ago
  Ya, that makes my proposal imperfect, however I contend that it would be a huge improvement over the status quo.
  - mikeash 7y ago
    How about you include an opt in link? If the service is so valuable then this should be fine.
- kylec 7y ago
  Maybe Superhuman could delete the tracking info it gathered when you opt-out
  - bigiain 7y ago
    And we should 100% trust them to do that, because they've demonstrated responsible stewardship of user data so far. Or not.
RandallBrown 7y ago
Once the email is opened, you can't opt out of being tracked. You could opt out of future emails I suppose, but there's not really a way to stop this. Nothing stops me from embedding my own tracking pixel in the email either.
crawfordcomeaux 7y ago
Neither is an initial request for consent from the recipient. He could benefit from consent training.
sneak 7y ago
I am pretty sure that opening an email in a client that is configured to load remote images is consent. After all, it’s your own computer, configured by you, that is sending your IP address to the sender of the email. It is entirely opt-in, just like the use of email in the first place. If you don’t want that to happen, configure your computer to not do that. Same thing for storing cookies. The thing that really troubles me is that in this new app-based world, these sorts of options are slowly becoming extinct.
- etchalon 7y ago
  There is no universe in which “side effect of technology I do not fully understand” would be considered consent.
  - sneak 7y ago
    The medical one? I don’t think most people understand the full implications of most medical treatment choices they make, but they still opt for them, and we still call it informed consent.
  - sneak 7y ago
    Are users responsible for any other piece of machinery they purchase that they don’t fully understand? The very fact that you can choose different web browsers, some that accept and save cookies and some that don’t, or different email clients, some that load remote content and some that don’t, means that the user made a choice. They purchased hardware that they chose, they installed and configured apps and services that they chose, or that came preinstalled on the hardware that they chose. I would venture a guess that most consumers do not opt to fully understand the consequences of their consumption choices, sure. But that doesn’t mean that their choices, or the consequences thereof, are any less their own. Ignorance of the consequence of one’s choices is itself a choice.
- crispinb 7y ago
  I doubt very much anyone would consider it informed consent. I doubt 1 in 100 users understand the implications of email image urls or ip geolocation.
tsieling 7y ago
Make it opt-in with a link on the first email sent to that address?
ljm 7y ago
It doesn’t seem to me like a problem worth solving. What’s so bad about sending an email and trusting that the recipient will get around to it? Send a follow up email if you need to. Or use old-fashioned read receipts (which depend on the recipient to enable them). Tech shouldn’t really be creepy by default, nor should it really establish needy/clingy behaviour, which is what I think non-consensual read tracking tends towards. I mean, personally, I would consider it a significant invasion of my privacy if anyone who sent me an email knew when I opened it and, roughly, where, without me knowing. The problem with the internet and tech companies now is that there is an established pattern of you being able to consent on behalf of other people purely by virtue of giving access to your contact list, or using a certain mail client. You are giving away their data, not your own.
- harryh 7y ago
  I pretty much agree with you. However, given that I'm extremely doubtful that SuperHuman will remove the feature completely, I'm going for what I consider a minimum standard of decency: disclosure and the ability for recipients to opt out.
- enraged_camel 7y ago
  Meh. I'll risk the downvotes and say that I fully support tracking pixels in emails. One of the reasons I use WhatsApp heavily is the read statuses. A single checkmark underneath the message means it was sent. Two checkmarks mean it was delivered. When the checkmarks turn blue, it means the recipient read the message. I love, love this feature. If I could wave a wand and instantaneously make it standard for ALL methods of communication, I would do it in a heartbeat.
  - orangecat 7y ago
    Conversely, I would gladly push a button to make such tracking technically impossible. The idea that sending me an unsolicited message entitles you to any information about my activity is absurd.
    - enraged_camel 7y ago
m3kw9 7y ago
Just have a button that links to the superhuman account in the email to opt out. Like tapping on unsubscribe.
troydavis 7y ago
I casually proposed[1] a vendor-agnostic, free Web service and API for any email address to opt out of open tracking/read receipts. Imagine Gravatar but for obtaining an email recipient's preferences via an API. Obviously this would depend on whether a sending app decides to honor it, but responsible senders would have a harder time justifying ignoring it. [1]: https://twitter.com/troyd/status/1146554065553256448 https://twitter.com/troyd/status/1146554065553256448, https://twitter.com/troyd/status/1146561165687869440 https://twitter.com/troyd/status/1146561165687869440
- harryh 7y ago
  This is a good idea.
- yellow_postit 7y ago
  How would that improve upon the existing MDN [1] system which relies on the client? [1]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Return_receipt https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Return_receipt
  - troydavis 7y ago
    Good question. I don't think they're mutually exclusive. It seems like existing client-side options don't cover these 3 uses that a third-party service might: 1. A recipient-specific "Do Not Track" option could apply to recipient-specific link/click tracking, not just open tracking. 2. Ideally, all email clients would have an option not to load images by default, but based on the comments in this thread, some don't. One popular example seems to be [Gmail for iOS](https://support.google.com/mail/answer/145919?co=GENIE.Platform%3DiOS&hl=en&oco=1 https://support.google.com/mail/answer/145919?co=GENIE.Platf...): "Images will always appear in the Gmail app on your iPhone or iPad." A third-party service could give some control to users of clients without this feature. (Whether the responsibility belongs on the sender, the recipient, or both is totally debatable and in practice, not very relevant. For all stakeholders, the goal is to communicate in a way that satisfies all parties well enough to keep communicating. Recipients have been at a disadvantage due to lack of information, and as their awareness increases, their expectations will rise.) 3. Right now, there's no way for companies which actually care about privacy and/or recipient preferences to stand out from those which don't, or which don't yet claim to. This would be one of few ways to discern white/light grey-hat senders and mail delivery services from dark grey/black-hat ones.
eli 7y ago
I'm not sure more "Agree to do X with my data" popups are the right direction to move in.

by harryh 7y ago

crispinb 7y ago

Honesty? This is tech. This is business. You're speaking a foreign language to both.

derefr 7y ago

That allows you to opt out only after having had your first open tracked. Presumably a technological solution would allow the client to opt out of even that first pixel (hopefully while not having to opt out of displaying non-tracking images.)

harryh 7y ago
Ya, that makes my proposal imperfect, however I contend that it would be a huge improvement over the status quo.
- mikeash 7y ago
  How about you include an opt in link? If the service is so valuable then this should be fine.
kylec 7y ago
Maybe Superhuman could delete the tracking info it gathered when you opt-out
- bigiain 7y ago
  And we should 100% trust them to do that, because they've demonstrated responsible stewardship of user data so far. Or not.

RandallBrown 7y ago

Once the email is opened, you can't opt out of being tracked. You could opt out of future emails I suppose, but there's not really a way to stop this. Nothing stops me from embedding my own tracking pixel in the email either.

crawfordcomeaux 7y ago

Neither is an initial request for consent from the recipient. He could benefit from consent training.

sneak 7y ago

I am pretty sure that opening an email in a client that is configured to load remote images is consent. After all, it’s your own computer, configured by you, that is sending your IP address to the sender of the email. It is entirely opt-in, just like the use of email in the first place. If you don’t want that to happen, configure your computer to not do that. Same thing for storing cookies. The thing that really troubles me is that in this new app-based world, these sorts of options are slowly becoming extinct.

etchalon 7y ago
There is no universe in which “side effect of technology I do not fully understand” would be considered consent.
- sneak 7y ago
  The medical one? I don’t think most people understand the full implications of most medical treatment choices they make, but they still opt for them, and we still call it informed consent.
- sneak 7y ago
  Are users responsible for any other piece of machinery they purchase that they don’t fully understand? The very fact that you can choose different web browsers, some that accept and save cookies and some that don’t, or different email clients, some that load remote content and some that don’t, means that the user made a choice. They purchased hardware that they chose, they installed and configured apps and services that they chose, or that came preinstalled on the hardware that they chose. I would venture a guess that most consumers do not opt to fully understand the consequences of their consumption choices, sure. But that doesn’t mean that their choices, or the consequences thereof, are any less their own. Ignorance of the consequence of one’s choices is itself a choice.
crispinb 7y ago
I doubt very much anyone would consider it informed consent. I doubt 1 in 100 users understand the implications of email image urls or ip geolocation.

tsieling 7y ago

Make it opt-in with a link on the first email sent to that address?

ljm 7y ago

It doesn’t seem to me like a problem worth solving. What’s so bad about sending an email and trusting that the recipient will get around to it? Send a follow up email if you need to. Or use old-fashioned read receipts (which depend on the recipient to enable them). Tech shouldn’t really be creepy by default, nor should it really establish needy/clingy behaviour, which is what I think non-consensual read tracking tends towards. I mean, personally, I would consider it a significant invasion of my privacy if anyone who sent me an email knew when I opened it and, roughly, where, without me knowing. The problem with the internet and tech companies now is that there is an established pattern of you being able to consent on behalf of other people purely by virtue of giving access to your contact list, or using a certain mail client. You are giving away their data, not your own.

harryh 7y ago
I pretty much agree with you. However, given that I'm extremely doubtful that SuperHuman will remove the feature completely, I'm going for what I consider a minimum standard of decency: disclosure and the ability for recipients to opt out.
enraged_camel 7y ago
Meh. I'll risk the downvotes and say that I fully support tracking pixels in emails. One of the reasons I use WhatsApp heavily is the read statuses. A single checkmark underneath the message means it was sent. Two checkmarks mean it was delivered. When the checkmarks turn blue, it means the recipient read the message. I love, love this feature. If I could wave a wand and instantaneously make it standard for ALL methods of communication, I would do it in a heartbeat.
- orangecat 7y ago
  Conversely, I would gladly push a button to make such tracking technically impossible. The idea that sending me an unsolicited message entitles you to any information about my activity is absurd.
  - enraged_camel 7y ago

m3kw9 7y ago

Just have a button that links to the superhuman account in the email to opt out. Like tapping on unsubscribe.

troydavis 7y ago

I casually proposed[1] a vendor-agnostic, free Web service and API for any email address to opt out of open tracking/read receipts. Imagine Gravatar but for obtaining an email recipient's preferences via an API. Obviously this would depend on whether a sending app decides to honor it, but responsible senders would have a harder time justifying ignoring it. [1]: https://twitter.com/troyd/status/1146554065553256448 https://twitter.com/troyd/status/1146554065553256448, https://twitter.com/troyd/status/1146561165687869440 https://twitter.com/troyd/status/1146561165687869440

harryh 7y ago
This is a good idea.
yellow_postit 7y ago
How would that improve upon the existing MDN [1] system which relies on the client? [1]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Return_receipt https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Return_receipt
- troydavis 7y ago
  Good question. I don't think they're mutually exclusive. It seems like existing client-side options don't cover these 3 uses that a third-party service might: 1. A recipient-specific "Do Not Track" option could apply to recipient-specific link/click tracking, not just open tracking. 2. Ideally, all email clients would have an option not to load images by default, but based on the comments in this thread, some don't. One popular example seems to be [Gmail for iOS](https://support.google.com/mail/answer/145919?co=GENIE.Platform%3DiOS&hl=en&oco=1 https://support.google.com/mail/answer/145919?co=GENIE.Platf...): "Images will always appear in the Gmail app on your iPhone or iPad." A third-party service could give some control to users of clients without this feature. (Whether the responsibility belongs on the sender, the recipient, or both is totally debatable and in practice, not very relevant. For all stakeholders, the goal is to communicate in a way that satisfies all parties well enough to keep communicating. Recipients have been at a disadvantage due to lack of information, and as their awareness increases, their expectations will rise.) 3. Right now, there's no way for companies which actually care about privacy and/or recipient preferences to stand out from those which don't, or which don't yet claim to. This would be one of few ways to discern white/light grey-hat senders and mail delivery services from dark grey/black-hat ones.

eli 7y ago

I'm not sure more "Agree to do X with my data" popups are the right direction to move in.