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I'd take that over a Tesla any day. Once you learn where the buttons are you can control them without taking your eyes off the road. That looks like most cards

by lykr0n 7y ago

I'd take that over a Tesla any day. Once you learn where the buttons are you can control them without taking your eyes off the road. That looks like most cards other than a Tesla.

wlesieutre 7y ago
Except for the functions in the touchscreen, where it appears they’ve taken Tesla’s approach but done a shittier job of it
- lykr0n 7y ago
  Yeah... Not the best, but I'm sure that head unit will be working in 10 years. Tesla? Don't think so. It's also a €27,900 car, vs a €58,000 Tesla.
- mrtksn 7y ago
  I used to drive a Renault, the functions on the central screen are mostly for the entertainment and communications and there's another stick with buttons to control these without the need to interact with the touchscreen. It's not perfect but pretending that you need to interact with the touchscreen to drive the car is ridiculous. The buttons may seem confusing at first glance but this is not a website but a car that you literally get trained to ride and stick with it for more than few seconds so in no time all these buttons become second nature. The website domain is "grumpy" so I guess the OP prides himself/herself of being grumpy but I don't think that everyone has to be grumpy.
  - dmitriid 7y ago
    Please tell me how you control the A/C without touching the screen. For example, for increasing/decreasing fan speed. And how you switch radio stations (I still haven’t figured that) out. Or how you get to a second/third/fourth screen because Renault couldn’t figure out how to show all useful info on one screen. Or, since Bluetooth is finicky, how to initiate phone connection. All the things I had to do while driving, multiple times.
    - mrtksn 7y ago
      You control the AC from the knobs just below the touch screen, you switch the stations by rotating the button on the stick behind the steering wheel and you adjust the volume from the same stick. You change the audio source from the same stick, switch songs from the same stick using the same buttons. The phone connection is better taken care before start driving if you’re doing it for the first time but after that it instantly connects when you get inside the car with your phone.
      - wlesieutre 7y ago
        Back from a couple days without internet; the one thing I'd add in this conversation is that while on the road I do sometimes want to change AC settings other than the temperature (fan power, AC on/off, vent selection, recirculate). Those are all touchscreen items here that I wouldn't want to do while driving. In my own car I know by feel that my knobs left to right are vent, fan, temperature, and the button row below is AC, rear defog, and recirculate. I can change any of these without looking down. With a device like a smartphone I'm sympathetic to Steve Job's argument that a reconfigurable software keyboard that can pop in and out is great because it can be text input in one app or a fullscreen calculator in another, and you can add more features later via software. I don't buy that argument for a car where the hardware exists, is basically single purpose, and isn't going to get a 7th air vent option in a software update next month. The vents are the vents and I'd like a knob for them please.
- ptaipale 7y ago
  Except that Renault has actually very good controls, with separate physical wheels and buttons, for controlling the heater / ariflow, which is essential for driving. Nothing that is important during driving should be controlled through the touch screen. Here Renault is better than Tesla.
  - dmitriid 7y ago
    > with separate physical wheels and buttons, for controlling the heater / ariflow Not on Talisman. You can only set the temperature with knobs. You want to increase/decrease airflow? Welcome to the touchscreen.
    - ptaipale 7y ago
      There are several models, but they all seem to have dedicated windscreen demist buttons even if otherwise airflow control is via touch screen.
      - dmitriid 7y ago
        They will work fine today, too.
btilly 7y ago
Have you actually driven a Tesla? Most of the stuff that I want to do is steering wheel, or is controlled by voice after hitting a button on my steering wheel. If you have to look at the screen while driving, you're doing something wrong.
- cptskippy 7y ago
  I use the touch screen for about 30 seconds when I hop in to adjust HVAC, set my route, select a radio station, and that's about it. After backing out of the garage I rarely touch anything but the steering wheel or accelerator.
- Fins 7y ago
  Can we please put to rest that canard that only people who did not drive a Tesla criticize it? Depending on what you want from a car it is entirely possible and reasonable to discover that while Tesla is the best EV on the market, they do pretty crappy job of being a car as good as one that costs half as much.
  - btilly 7y ago
    It depends on the criticism. This criticism was one that anyone who drives a Tesla should know is BS. That's why I said it. It is the kind of stupid thing that people think when they haven't experienced the car. But if you claim, for example, that the tires wear out too quickly, I'd never question whether you're an actual Tesla driver. (But I would bet money that it is your fault for coming out of your stops heavy on the accelerator...)
    - Fins 7y ago
      (sigh) that;'s exactly what I am talking about. I drove a Tesla (not 3, it wasn't even out yet). And you know what? I was not impressed. Sure, it got nice electric torque, but in every other regard, from fit and finish to UX to dynamics to practicality for my usage it was at best unimpressive, considering the price, and at worst just bad. And didn't Elon, in one of his hissy fits with a supplier, drop the cooled seats option -- something you get in a $30K Hyundai? That's exactly why Tesla fanboys (and Tesla, by extension)_ aren't taken too seriously -- no, Elon is not Lord and Savior, and Tesla is not the Second Coming. It's a car, with some nice properties (if you want an EV), some serious shortcomings, and with some greatly deceptive marketing around pricing, savings, FSD etc.
Shivetya 7y ago
Because forty some buttons is a better UI than a touch screen you rarely if ever need to interface with. I have posted about this before. "Muscle" memory works on well designed screen UIs as well, especially those which are simple to use and don't involve sub menu after sub menu. If you want to get silly, my TM3 can drive just fine while I pretend to not remember where an option i never would use while driving is. The Tesla UI is the simplest screen based system I have used in a vehicle. The first rule is, you never really need to interact with it at all during a drive. This is true for many cars, even those with forty buttons AND a screen. Most cars have automatic climate control, automatic head lamps, many have automatic wipers as well. Many replicate simple often used controls to the steering wheel, this usually just means volume control and changing media tracks/stations but its all most ever need during any drive. Tesla's one fault is not having full blue tooth control over audio baked in, maybe they will get off their ass and fix it, who knows, they seem to be fixated on games which you cannot use while driving. Do a test, first count all your buttons. Put a sticker on each. When safe remove a sticker for each one you actually had to use. Go for it. How is this better? Don't try the argument of taking your eyes off the road. Everyone does this while driving a car properly, checking mirrors and more is a trained activity all good drivers do, taking information in with glances and more all becomes second nature. The real issue is that in the transition is too many manufacturers are keeping far too much of the old method and combining it with a screen UI, usually a bad screen UI. One that an option you would actually want to use while driving requires more than a quick touch or voice command. Motortrend's current issue compares a new BMW 3 series, Genesis G70, and a Tesla TM3. They have a nice picture of all three dash boards in one page. What will strike you quickly is how convoluted the G70 and 3 series look. This Renault is a perfect example of trying to do both methods all at once and failing miserable. Bad UI is bad no matter if its buttons only or screen only and doubly worse when its both.
cptskippy 7y ago
Which model? The S has physical controls for most things.

by lykr0n 7y ago

I'd take that over a Tesla any day. Once you learn where the buttons are you can control them without taking your eyes off the road. That looks like most cards other than a Tesla.

wlesieutre 7y ago

Except for the functions in the touchscreen, where it appears they’ve taken Tesla’s approach but done a shittier job of it

lykr0n 7y ago
Yeah... Not the best, but I'm sure that head unit will be working in 10 years. Tesla? Don't think so. It's also a €27,900 car, vs a €58,000 Tesla.
mrtksn 7y ago
I used to drive a Renault, the functions on the central screen are mostly for the entertainment and communications and there's another stick with buttons to control these without the need to interact with the touchscreen. It's not perfect but pretending that you need to interact with the touchscreen to drive the car is ridiculous. The buttons may seem confusing at first glance but this is not a website but a car that you literally get trained to ride and stick with it for more than few seconds so in no time all these buttons become second nature. The website domain is "grumpy" so I guess the OP prides himself/herself of being grumpy but I don't think that everyone has to be grumpy.
- dmitriid 7y ago
  Please tell me how you control the A/C without touching the screen. For example, for increasing/decreasing fan speed. And how you switch radio stations (I still haven’t figured that) out. Or how you get to a second/third/fourth screen because Renault couldn’t figure out how to show all useful info on one screen. Or, since Bluetooth is finicky, how to initiate phone connection. All the things I had to do while driving, multiple times.
  - mrtksn 7y ago
    You control the AC from the knobs just below the touch screen, you switch the stations by rotating the button on the stick behind the steering wheel and you adjust the volume from the same stick. You change the audio source from the same stick, switch songs from the same stick using the same buttons. The phone connection is better taken care before start driving if you’re doing it for the first time but after that it instantly connects when you get inside the car with your phone.
    - wlesieutre 7y ago
      Back from a couple days without internet; the one thing I'd add in this conversation is that while on the road I do sometimes want to change AC settings other than the temperature (fan power, AC on/off, vent selection, recirculate). Those are all touchscreen items here that I wouldn't want to do while driving. In my own car I know by feel that my knobs left to right are vent, fan, temperature, and the button row below is AC, rear defog, and recirculate. I can change any of these without looking down. With a device like a smartphone I'm sympathetic to Steve Job's argument that a reconfigurable software keyboard that can pop in and out is great because it can be text input in one app or a fullscreen calculator in another, and you can add more features later via software. I don't buy that argument for a car where the hardware exists, is basically single purpose, and isn't going to get a 7th air vent option in a software update next month. The vents are the vents and I'd like a knob for them please.
ptaipale 7y ago
Except that Renault has actually very good controls, with separate physical wheels and buttons, for controlling the heater / ariflow, which is essential for driving. Nothing that is important during driving should be controlled through the touch screen. Here Renault is better than Tesla.
- dmitriid 7y ago
  > with separate physical wheels and buttons, for controlling the heater / ariflow Not on Talisman. You can only set the temperature with knobs. You want to increase/decrease airflow? Welcome to the touchscreen.
  - ptaipale 7y ago
    There are several models, but they all seem to have dedicated windscreen demist buttons even if otherwise airflow control is via touch screen.
    - dmitriid 7y ago
      They will work fine today, too.

btilly 7y ago

Have you actually driven a Tesla? Most of the stuff that I want to do is steering wheel, or is controlled by voice after hitting a button on my steering wheel. If you have to look at the screen while driving, you're doing something wrong.

cptskippy 7y ago
I use the touch screen for about 30 seconds when I hop in to adjust HVAC, set my route, select a radio station, and that's about it. After backing out of the garage I rarely touch anything but the steering wheel or accelerator.
Fins 7y ago
Can we please put to rest that canard that only people who did not drive a Tesla criticize it? Depending on what you want from a car it is entirely possible and reasonable to discover that while Tesla is the best EV on the market, they do pretty crappy job of being a car as good as one that costs half as much.
- btilly 7y ago
  It depends on the criticism. This criticism was one that anyone who drives a Tesla should know is BS. That's why I said it. It is the kind of stupid thing that people think when they haven't experienced the car. But if you claim, for example, that the tires wear out too quickly, I'd never question whether you're an actual Tesla driver. (But I would bet money that it is your fault for coming out of your stops heavy on the accelerator...)
  - Fins 7y ago
    (sigh) that;'s exactly what I am talking about. I drove a Tesla (not 3, it wasn't even out yet). And you know what? I was not impressed. Sure, it got nice electric torque, but in every other regard, from fit and finish to UX to dynamics to practicality for my usage it was at best unimpressive, considering the price, and at worst just bad. And didn't Elon, in one of his hissy fits with a supplier, drop the cooled seats option -- something you get in a $30K Hyundai? That's exactly why Tesla fanboys (and Tesla, by extension)_ aren't taken too seriously -- no, Elon is not Lord and Savior, and Tesla is not the Second Coming. It's a car, with some nice properties (if you want an EV), some serious shortcomings, and with some greatly deceptive marketing around pricing, savings, FSD etc.

Shivetya 7y ago

Because forty some buttons is a better UI than a touch screen you rarely if ever need to interface with. I have posted about this before. "Muscle" memory works on well designed screen UIs as well, especially those which are simple to use and don't involve sub menu after sub menu. If you want to get silly, my TM3 can drive just fine while I pretend to not remember where an option i never would use while driving is. The Tesla UI is the simplest screen based system I have used in a vehicle. The first rule is, you never really need to interact with it at all during a drive. This is true for many cars, even those with forty buttons AND a screen. Most cars have automatic climate control, automatic head lamps, many have automatic wipers as well. Many replicate simple often used controls to the steering wheel, this usually just means volume control and changing media tracks/stations but its all most ever need during any drive. Tesla's one fault is not having full blue tooth control over audio baked in, maybe they will get off their ass and fix it, who knows, they seem to be fixated on games which you cannot use while driving. Do a test, first count all your buttons. Put a sticker on each. When safe remove a sticker for each one you actually had to use. Go for it. How is this better? Don't try the argument of taking your eyes off the road. Everyone does this while driving a car properly, checking mirrors and more is a trained activity all good drivers do, taking information in with glances and more all becomes second nature. The real issue is that in the transition is too many manufacturers are keeping far too much of the old method and combining it with a screen UI, usually a bad screen UI. One that an option you would actually want to use while driving requires more than a quick touch or voice command. Motortrend's current issue compares a new BMW 3 series, Genesis G70, and a Tesla TM3. They have a nice picture of all three dash boards in one page. What will strike you quickly is how convoluted the G70 and 3 series look. This Renault is a perfect example of trying to do both methods all at once and failing miserable. Bad UI is bad no matter if its buttons only or screen only and doubly worse when its both.

cptskippy 7y ago

Which model? The S has physical controls for most things.