6 ms·

In The Hidden Life of Trees, one cool fact that stuck with me in support of tree consciousness was how trees that are under attack from certain insect species w

by mikeg8 7y ago

In The Hidden Life of Trees, one cool fact that stuck with me in support of tree consciousness was how trees that are under attack from certain insect species will release pheromones to warn neighboring trees. The neighboring trees will then rapidly increase production of tanins and other defense chemicals to stave of the insect onslaught. pretty cool

deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
pedro1976 7y ago
One could conclude that they have a sense for their community, an us-feelimg. Interesting...
TTPrograms 7y ago
That sort of behavior would be expected for even trivial organisms according to kin selection, though.
- mikeg8 7y ago
  My brief Wikipedia look-up on kin selection makes it seem like it is an evolutionary strategy exclusive to animals. Do you have examples of non animal species or "trivial organisms" that have used this strategy? Edit: just saw a small snippet on plants down the page but if anything, i think kin selection in and of itself is supporting of consciousness. I have a hard time imaging non-conscious subjects exhibiting kin selection.
  - tasty_freeze 7y ago
    > i think kin selection in and of itself is supporting of consciousness Why would you think that? Evolution operates on a population via shaping the distribution of traits via selection. The selection is being done by the environment, not the population, and requires no conscious entity.
    - mikeg8 7y ago
      You are confusing natural selection with kin selection. Natural selection is by the environment, kin selection is by the organism.
      - TTPrograms 7y ago
        That's not really a distinction. Kin selection is a phenomena by which genes can propagate despite them not benefiting (or even harming) the individual that possesses them if it increases the probability of reproduction for other individuals possessing the gene (eg. if they are likely to be related). It's evolutionarily plausible and explains a massive range of traits and behaviors up through full altruism. See eg. "gay uncle" hypothesis: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biology_and_sexual_orientation#Gay_uncle_hypothesis https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biology_and_sexual_orientation... I would describe kin selection as a phenomena that is caused by natural selection because natural selection is a phenomena describing propagation of genes and not propagation of individuals. This is a subtle point and often not taught unless taking specific relevant coursework (I learned about it in an animal behavior class). I am likely using slightly incorrect phrasing and evolutionary science experts may phrase things differently, though I am confident in the essence of this argument.
      - tasty_freeze 7y ago
        > Natural selection is by the environment, kin selection is by the organism. This is simply a false statement. Kin selection isn't distinct from natural selection. Kin selection is the idea that a trait could be harmful to an organism but if it confers sufficient benefit to close relatives (who are likely to have the same gene), the trait can be favored. It is one of the core ideas of "the selfish gene" view -- that from an organisms vantage point such a trait should go extinct, but viewed from the gene's vantage point, it is a desirable trait.
sixplusone 7y ago
How do you determine whether the tree releases pheromones to warn others -vs- it happens to release pheromones and it induces a response in the others? i.e., the former requires intent, whereas the latter simply evolutionary pressure (since the trees with the response would fare better, thus reproduce more successfully).
- mikeg8 7y ago
  Good question and a difficult one for me to answer as I am no expert here. I believe it was the discovery that trees were using pheromones during an acute external event, with or without "intent" as we understand it, to alter neighboring trees, that was surprising to the researchers as we typically associate pheromones with animals. If a single tree under duress is using its resources and energy to signal to other trees that have no way of directly helping the tree in question, what evolutionary advantage is being provided to the tree releasing the pheromones? Not sure I am able to expand on this but it seems that the trees may have an awareness of your last line: "since the trees with the response would fare better, thus reproduce more successfully", and that awareness may be a form of consciousness different than our own.
  - tempguy9999 7y ago
    The trees were acacias (there may be other species that do this, I don't know) and the pheromone was ethylene, which is a very simple gas that's used in development of other things in plants, famously like fruit ripening but likely more (can't remember, prob bud development). <https://asknature.org/strategy/leaves-signal-presence-of-predators/> https://asknature.org/strategy/leaves-signal-presence-of-pre... > If a single tree under duress is using its resources and energy to signal to other trees that have no way of directly helping the tree in question, what evolutionary advantage is being provided to the tree releasing the pheromones? Its genetic legacy is being enhanced, if the trees it's protecting are related, which likely they are (very elegant phrasing though! upvoted just for that) > thus reproduce more successfully", and that awareness may be a form of consciousness different than our own Hmm. Be careful here. I need to sit down and read and understand this so please recognise I'm dumping this on you, but "Michie’s design, called MENACE, was a large pile of matchboxes that contained a number of beads and learned to play tic-tac-toe." ... "MENACE could never win against the perfect algorithm, but ended up drawing every time after about 90 games, making it equally as perfect" <https://opendatascience.com/menace-donald-michie-tic-tac-toe-machine-learning/> https://opendatascience.com/menace-donald-michie-tic-tac-toe... I dunno. Where do you draw the line? HTH anyway.

by mikeg8 7y ago

deleted 7y ago

[deleted]

pedro1976 7y ago

One could conclude that they have a sense for their community, an us-feelimg. Interesting...

TTPrograms 7y ago

That sort of behavior would be expected for even trivial organisms according to kin selection, though.

mikeg8 7y ago
My brief Wikipedia look-up on kin selection makes it seem like it is an evolutionary strategy exclusive to animals. Do you have examples of non animal species or "trivial organisms" that have used this strategy? Edit: just saw a small snippet on plants down the page but if anything, i think kin selection in and of itself is supporting of consciousness. I have a hard time imaging non-conscious subjects exhibiting kin selection.
- tasty_freeze 7y ago
  > i think kin selection in and of itself is supporting of consciousness Why would you think that? Evolution operates on a population via shaping the distribution of traits via selection. The selection is being done by the environment, not the population, and requires no conscious entity.
  - mikeg8 7y ago
    You are confusing natural selection with kin selection. Natural selection is by the environment, kin selection is by the organism.
    - TTPrograms 7y ago
      That's not really a distinction. Kin selection is a phenomena by which genes can propagate despite them not benefiting (or even harming) the individual that possesses them if it increases the probability of reproduction for other individuals possessing the gene (eg. if they are likely to be related). It's evolutionarily plausible and explains a massive range of traits and behaviors up through full altruism. See eg. "gay uncle" hypothesis: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biology_and_sexual_orientation#Gay_uncle_hypothesis https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biology_and_sexual_orientation... I would describe kin selection as a phenomena that is caused by natural selection because natural selection is a phenomena describing propagation of genes and not propagation of individuals. This is a subtle point and often not taught unless taking specific relevant coursework (I learned about it in an animal behavior class). I am likely using slightly incorrect phrasing and evolutionary science experts may phrase things differently, though I am confident in the essence of this argument.
    - tasty_freeze 7y ago
      > Natural selection is by the environment, kin selection is by the organism. This is simply a false statement. Kin selection isn't distinct from natural selection. Kin selection is the idea that a trait could be harmful to an organism but if it confers sufficient benefit to close relatives (who are likely to have the same gene), the trait can be favored. It is one of the core ideas of "the selfish gene" view -- that from an organisms vantage point such a trait should go extinct, but viewed from the gene's vantage point, it is a desirable trait.

sixplusone 7y ago

How do you determine whether the tree releases pheromones to warn others -vs- it happens to release pheromones and it induces a response in the others? i.e., the former requires intent, whereas the latter simply evolutionary pressure (since the trees with the response would fare better, thus reproduce more successfully).

mikeg8 7y ago
Good question and a difficult one for me to answer as I am no expert here. I believe it was the discovery that trees were using pheromones during an acute external event, with or without "intent" as we understand it, to alter neighboring trees, that was surprising to the researchers as we typically associate pheromones with animals. If a single tree under duress is using its resources and energy to signal to other trees that have no way of directly helping the tree in question, what evolutionary advantage is being provided to the tree releasing the pheromones? Not sure I am able to expand on this but it seems that the trees may have an awareness of your last line: "since the trees with the response would fare better, thus reproduce more successfully", and that awareness may be a form of consciousness different than our own.
- tempguy9999 7y ago
  The trees were acacias (there may be other species that do this, I don't know) and the pheromone was ethylene, which is a very simple gas that's used in development of other things in plants, famously like fruit ripening but likely more (can't remember, prob bud development). <https://asknature.org/strategy/leaves-signal-presence-of-predators/> https://asknature.org/strategy/leaves-signal-presence-of-pre... > If a single tree under duress is using its resources and energy to signal to other trees that have no way of directly helping the tree in question, what evolutionary advantage is being provided to the tree releasing the pheromones? Its genetic legacy is being enhanced, if the trees it's protecting are related, which likely they are (very elegant phrasing though! upvoted just for that) > thus reproduce more successfully", and that awareness may be a form of consciousness different than our own Hmm. Be careful here. I need to sit down and read and understand this so please recognise I'm dumping this on you, but "Michie’s design, called MENACE, was a large pile of matchboxes that contained a number of beads and learned to play tic-tac-toe." ... "MENACE could never win against the perfect algorithm, but ended up drawing every time after about 90 games, making it equally as perfect" <https://opendatascience.com/menace-donald-michie-tic-tac-toe-machine-learning/> https://opendatascience.com/menace-donald-michie-tic-tac-toe... I dunno. Where do you draw the line? HTH anyway.