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I know about the categorical imperative, but people aren’t saints. They follow incentives. The fix is to create incentives that make it easier to behave better

by chroma 7y ago

I know about the categorical imperative, but people aren’t saints. They follow incentives. The fix is to create incentives that make it easier to behave better, not chastise people for doing what benefits them. That said, I fail to see how his behavior is antisocial. He’s creating far more wealth in his current job than he could in the EU. If he ever moves back, he’ll bring millions of dollars with him and inject it into the local economy.

luckylion 7y ago
> I know about the categorical imperative, but people aren’t saints It's not about sainthood, it's about ethics. > The fix is to create incentives that make it easier to behave better, not chastise people for doing what benefits them. Breaking the rules will always give him more benefit, unless we "chastise" (that is: punish) that behavior. There's little we can do to make not murdering people that stand between him and riches "better" but making him believe that we will punish him. Clearly, relying on ethics and/or rational acting won't work with that kind of people. > That said, I fail to see how his behavior is antisocial. There would be no society if everybody acted like him. > If he ever moves back, he’ll bring millions of dollars with him and inject it into the local economy. He will, as he stated, only move back if he gets seriously ill and requires the social net to catch him. He will only come back if he's going to cost money.
- deanmoriarty 7y ago
  I am curious, how would you have acted in my shoes? A few alternative options I can think of: 1) Not even try to move to the US to pursue the dream of a world-class tech career (dream I had since I was 12), stay in my own EU country with a mind-numbing consultancy job (which again, it's the only kind of employment available since the country is mostly rural with a limited software industry) to be fully consistent with morals. This also means I won't be able to financially help my parents as a sign of gratitude for all they've done for me, since my salary will be barely enough to keep me afloat. 2) Move to the US and completely renounce to my EU citizenship, so I won't ever have a way to go back and "take advantage" of my EU country (meaning I wouldn't even be able to see parents and family without an immigration visa). 3) Move to the US, keep the EU citizenship, but completely deny to myself the option of eventually moving back if needed. So, if I get a massive debilitating cancer that will force me to quit my job and lose my health insurance in the US, I'll die without treatment and all alone (loving family is all in EU) but with morals. 4) Move to the US, keep the EU citizenship, keep the possibility of eventually moving to EU, but to be consistent with morals find a way to donate to my EU government a few hundreds/thousands a month to keep contributing to the social safety net even if I'm not a resident there (I don't believe that's even physically possible?). But certainly that wouldn't be enough to cover the expenses my government paid for my education, so I should also find a way to refund that? 5) Move to the US, keep the EU citizenship, and start a countdown mandating that in exactly N years (where N cannot be certainly changed!) I will move back to EU regardless of where I am in my career or health status, so I won't be able to just move to the EU at the most convenient time. I'm asking because it's easy to talk about problems at a philosophical level, but please try to step down from your judging pedestal and come back to the real world with real problems, thinking what YOU would have done in practice.
  - luckylion 7y ago
    > 1) Not move to the US to pursue a world-class tech career, stay in EU with a mind-numbing consultancy job to be fully consistent with morals. I know plenty of people in the EU that work in IT, get paid very well (compared to their peers) and do not work in a consulting company. Especially for very talented people, I haven't heard of any stories about not finding interesting, fulfilling work. > 3) Move to the US, keep the EU citizenship, but completely deny to myself the option of eventually moving back, so if I get a massive debilitating cancer that will force me to quit my job and lose my insurance in the US, I'll die with morals. Since you renounce your duties to the society that gave you your free education and upbringing, renouncing the benefits sounds fair, yes. Living and dying by your personal convictions is what I respect in people. Living by them only while it's convenient and stopping to do so when they get tested just means that you don't actually have any. > 4) Move to the US, keep the EU citizenship, keep the possibility of eventually moving to EU, but to be consistent with my morals find a way to donate to my EU government a few hundreds/thousands a month to keep contributing to the social safety net (I don't believe that's even possible for non-residents). That's another option, I'm sure you can find a way if you want to. I don't mind the emigration part at all, it's the reasoning I dislike. Saying "I don't like the bureaucracy" or "I don't like the population density" or "I don't like the language/food/culture/tv program" etc, that's perfectly fine in my book. But saying "I've taken all I can, it's time to move on, otherwise I'd have to give back. Oh well, I might come back if I ever get needy again and there's more to take" is not in my book. Living in a society that finances your education and catches you if you fall comes at a cost. Ducking out when the bill comes isn't what I'd do.
    - BeetleB 7y ago
      >Since you renounce your duties to the society that gave you your free education and upbringing, renouncing the benefits sounds fair, yes. Living and dying by your personal convictions is what I respect in people. Living by them only while it's convenient and stopping to do so when they get tested just means that you don't actually have any. Why not formalize it by saying one should lose citizenship automatically under these circumstances? If you don't agree with that, then realize you are drawing a line somewhere, and deanmoriarty is merely drawing the line in a different place. Both of you are the same, and are merely quibbling with the degree by which you are the same.

by chroma 7y ago

luckylion 7y ago

> I know about the categorical imperative, but people aren’t saints It's not about sainthood, it's about ethics. > The fix is to create incentives that make it easier to behave better, not chastise people for doing what benefits them. Breaking the rules will always give him more benefit, unless we "chastise" (that is: punish) that behavior. There's little we can do to make not murdering people that stand between him and riches "better" but making him believe that we will punish him. Clearly, relying on ethics and/or rational acting won't work with that kind of people. > That said, I fail to see how his behavior is antisocial. There would be no society if everybody acted like him. > If he ever moves back, he’ll bring millions of dollars with him and inject it into the local economy. He will, as he stated, only move back if he gets seriously ill and requires the social net to catch him. He will only come back if he's going to cost money.

deanmoriarty 7y ago
I am curious, how would you have acted in my shoes? A few alternative options I can think of: 1) Not even try to move to the US to pursue the dream of a world-class tech career (dream I had since I was 12), stay in my own EU country with a mind-numbing consultancy job (which again, it's the only kind of employment available since the country is mostly rural with a limited software industry) to be fully consistent with morals. This also means I won't be able to financially help my parents as a sign of gratitude for all they've done for me, since my salary will be barely enough to keep me afloat. 2) Move to the US and completely renounce to my EU citizenship, so I won't ever have a way to go back and "take advantage" of my EU country (meaning I wouldn't even be able to see parents and family without an immigration visa). 3) Move to the US, keep the EU citizenship, but completely deny to myself the option of eventually moving back if needed. So, if I get a massive debilitating cancer that will force me to quit my job and lose my health insurance in the US, I'll die without treatment and all alone (loving family is all in EU) but with morals. 4) Move to the US, keep the EU citizenship, keep the possibility of eventually moving to EU, but to be consistent with morals find a way to donate to my EU government a few hundreds/thousands a month to keep contributing to the social safety net even if I'm not a resident there (I don't believe that's even physically possible?). But certainly that wouldn't be enough to cover the expenses my government paid for my education, so I should also find a way to refund that? 5) Move to the US, keep the EU citizenship, and start a countdown mandating that in exactly N years (where N cannot be certainly changed!) I will move back to EU regardless of where I am in my career or health status, so I won't be able to just move to the EU at the most convenient time. I'm asking because it's easy to talk about problems at a philosophical level, but please try to step down from your judging pedestal and come back to the real world with real problems, thinking what YOU would have done in practice.
- luckylion 7y ago
  > 1) Not move to the US to pursue a world-class tech career, stay in EU with a mind-numbing consultancy job to be fully consistent with morals. I know plenty of people in the EU that work in IT, get paid very well (compared to their peers) and do not work in a consulting company. Especially for very talented people, I haven't heard of any stories about not finding interesting, fulfilling work. > 3) Move to the US, keep the EU citizenship, but completely deny to myself the option of eventually moving back, so if I get a massive debilitating cancer that will force me to quit my job and lose my insurance in the US, I'll die with morals. Since you renounce your duties to the society that gave you your free education and upbringing, renouncing the benefits sounds fair, yes. Living and dying by your personal convictions is what I respect in people. Living by them only while it's convenient and stopping to do so when they get tested just means that you don't actually have any. > 4) Move to the US, keep the EU citizenship, keep the possibility of eventually moving to EU, but to be consistent with my morals find a way to donate to my EU government a few hundreds/thousands a month to keep contributing to the social safety net (I don't believe that's even possible for non-residents). That's another option, I'm sure you can find a way if you want to. I don't mind the emigration part at all, it's the reasoning I dislike. Saying "I don't like the bureaucracy" or "I don't like the population density" or "I don't like the language/food/culture/tv program" etc, that's perfectly fine in my book. But saying "I've taken all I can, it's time to move on, otherwise I'd have to give back. Oh well, I might come back if I ever get needy again and there's more to take" is not in my book. Living in a society that finances your education and catches you if you fall comes at a cost. Ducking out when the bill comes isn't what I'd do.
  - BeetleB 7y ago
    >Since you renounce your duties to the society that gave you your free education and upbringing, renouncing the benefits sounds fair, yes. Living and dying by your personal convictions is what I respect in people. Living by them only while it's convenient and stopping to do so when they get tested just means that you don't actually have any. Why not formalize it by saying one should lose citizenship automatically under these circumstances? If you don't agree with that, then realize you are drawing a line somewhere, and deanmoriarty is merely drawing the line in a different place. Both of you are the same, and are merely quibbling with the degree by which you are the same.