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What's the strong argument? Germany spends 11.14% of GDP on healthcare or 442B. The US by contrast spends 17.07% of GDP on healthcare or 3498B. Therefore the U

What's the strong argument? Germany spends 11.14% of GDP on healthcare or 442B. The US by contrast spends 17.07% of GDP on healthcare or 3498B. Therefore the US spends more and still lacks a comparable system. Additionally the amount Germany saves by under-spending on defensive wouldn't offset the cost of the wealthfare state for example if Germany spent 3% (the US spends 3.5% on defense) of its GDP on defense instead of the current 1.2% they go from spending 47B to 119B. That extra 72B is less than 17% of their total healthcare costs, which again, are much lower than the US'. This whole argument is a US Conservative talking point that has little to no basis in fact. When you look at the underlying data, it simply doesn't hold up, the cost of medical care and defense are orders of magnitude different and the US's system is so inefficient, even with the savings after decreasing defense spending from 3.5% of GDP to 1.2% (extra 472B/year) it wouldn't function well.

himeexcelanta 7y ago
I’m not arguing that the US healthcare system is more efficient (it definitely isn’t). I’m arguing the political and economic conditions present in post-91, EU-integrated, unified Germany were only made possible in part by constant military and political deterrence provided in part by US defense spending. US military power also increased the politician and diplomatic leverage of the West during the Cold War (the most obvious example being NATO).
- dakna 7y ago
  Might want to factor in what the US defense gets out of that continued military presence, especially as a relay for operations in the Middle East.
- DanBC 7y ago
  US military spending makes us considerably less safe.
  - chimeracoder 7y ago
    > US military spending makes us considerably less safe. I see you're based in the UK. In that case, you might want to contact Parliament and let them know, because the UK is currently engaged in most of the same war efforts in the middle east that the US is.
- thatfrenchguy 7y ago
  That’s quite BS knowing France has a much better healthcare system compared to the US and also can nuke any country to death. Defense spending and healthcare are clearly unrelated.
  - gingabriska 7y ago
    I read somewhere France still has colonies somewhere in Africa.
- notahacker 7y ago
  Sure, but the "if it wasn't for our military you'd all be speaking Russian/German" angle is about as relevant to arguments that European countries are better than the US at promoting public health as "if it wasn't for our colonialism you'd all be speaking Native American" is to arguments that Silicon Valley is better than Europe at promoting VC-led innovation and growth. US military spending is not the reason the US politicians and political culture has chosen to prioritise tax cuts and healthcare middleman profits over citizens dying of preventable diseases over the last half century The US could have been a Great Power and built a better public healthcare system.
hef19898 7y ago
Just that. And at least in Germany health care isn't even paid for by the government. Rather the government defines minimum things to be covered and sets limits for non-private health insurance premiums in % of gross salary.
TearsInTheRain 7y ago
You say 17% like that is a small amount. That could easily break their welfare system if they had to extract that shortfall via more taxes or contract their healthcare system. Also the military is not the only way the European healthcare system is subsidized by the US. Americans finance the drug research that pushes the world forward. If the US adopted European healthcare regulations the incentives for drug research would plummet, and healthcare innovation would slow to a crawl
- nosianu 7y ago
  They spend 11 and the us spends 17%. Do you think German health care somehow gets more expensive if they spend more on their military? By the way, compare EU military spending to the US, not that of one country. > The combined military expenditure of the member states amounts to just over is €192.5 billion. This represents 1.55% of European Union GDP and is second only to the €503 billion military expenditure of the United States. The US figure represents 4.66% of United States GDP. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_Security_and_Defence_Policy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_Security_and_Defence_Po... Unless the EU wants to have military places all over the world like the US and equally extraordinary military expenses, for whatever strange reason, far outspending anyone located near Europe, that sounds like plenty enough money for the military. Of course, it seems to me the US uses much of that money for what elsewhere might be called "socialism" and "central economic planning" because doing so directly would never fly with the American public. So it's labeled "defense" and then it's fine. > Americans finance the drug research that pushes the world forward. I see claims like that a lot because for some reason some (few but vocal) Americans seem to take personal offense at any suggestion something might not be "the best", I have yet to see even a bad source for it, never mind a good one. I can tell you German health care is shit too in so many ways that I'd be hard pressed to recommend it as a model to any nation, but according to the actual data it seems it's still better than the US system. Disclosure: I'm German but lived and worked in the US for a decade. I also think cost alone is not a good path of argument. Costs on an economy level are circular - they are somebody else's income. Also, much of health care is "optional", whatever level people want. The more important point is what does that money flow achieve. According to the analysis I am aware of it achieves less, in the US, on average. And US military spending since WWII wasn't and isn't high out of the goodness of American's hearts either. The US spend that much because it was beneficial at least from the point of view of those who got to make those spending decisions, and I'm sure they didn't have "foreigners" interests in mind but their own.
remcob 7y ago
Per capita amounts are more relevant here: 442B in Germany is 5K per capita. 3498B in the US is 11K per capita. So the spending difference is even more in US's favour.

himeexcelanta 7y ago

I’m not arguing that the US healthcare system is more efficient (it definitely isn’t). I’m arguing the political and economic conditions present in post-91, EU-integrated, unified Germany were only made possible in part by constant military and political deterrence provided in part by US defense spending. US military power also increased the politician and diplomatic leverage of the West during the Cold War (the most obvious example being NATO).

dakna 7y ago
Might want to factor in what the US defense gets out of that continued military presence, especially as a relay for operations in the Middle East.
DanBC 7y ago
US military spending makes us considerably less safe.
- chimeracoder 7y ago
  > US military spending makes us considerably less safe. I see you're based in the UK. In that case, you might want to contact Parliament and let them know, because the UK is currently engaged in most of the same war efforts in the middle east that the US is.
thatfrenchguy 7y ago
That’s quite BS knowing France has a much better healthcare system compared to the US and also can nuke any country to death. Defense spending and healthcare are clearly unrelated.
- gingabriska 7y ago
  I read somewhere France still has colonies somewhere in Africa.
notahacker 7y ago
Sure, but the "if it wasn't for our military you'd all be speaking Russian/German" angle is about as relevant to arguments that European countries are better than the US at promoting public health as "if it wasn't for our colonialism you'd all be speaking Native American" is to arguments that Silicon Valley is better than Europe at promoting VC-led innovation and growth. US military spending is not the reason the US politicians and political culture has chosen to prioritise tax cuts and healthcare middleman profits over citizens dying of preventable diseases over the last half century The US could have been a Great Power and built a better public healthcare system.

hef19898 7y ago

Just that. And at least in Germany health care isn't even paid for by the government. Rather the government defines minimum things to be covered and sets limits for non-private health insurance premiums in % of gross salary.

TearsInTheRain 7y ago

You say 17% like that is a small amount. That could easily break their welfare system if they had to extract that shortfall via more taxes or contract their healthcare system. Also the military is not the only way the European healthcare system is subsidized by the US. Americans finance the drug research that pushes the world forward. If the US adopted European healthcare regulations the incentives for drug research would plummet, and healthcare innovation would slow to a crawl

nosianu 7y ago
They spend 11 and the us spends 17%. Do you think German health care somehow gets more expensive if they spend more on their military? By the way, compare EU military spending to the US, not that of one country. > The combined military expenditure of the member states amounts to just over is €192.5 billion. This represents 1.55% of European Union GDP and is second only to the €503 billion military expenditure of the United States. The US figure represents 4.66% of United States GDP. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_Security_and_Defence_Policy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_Security_and_Defence_Po... Unless the EU wants to have military places all over the world like the US and equally extraordinary military expenses, for whatever strange reason, far outspending anyone located near Europe, that sounds like plenty enough money for the military. Of course, it seems to me the US uses much of that money for what elsewhere might be called "socialism" and "central economic planning" because doing so directly would never fly with the American public. So it's labeled "defense" and then it's fine. > Americans finance the drug research that pushes the world forward. I see claims like that a lot because for some reason some (few but vocal) Americans seem to take personal offense at any suggestion something might not be "the best", I have yet to see even a bad source for it, never mind a good one. I can tell you German health care is shit too in so many ways that I'd be hard pressed to recommend it as a model to any nation, but according to the actual data it seems it's still better than the US system. Disclosure: I'm German but lived and worked in the US for a decade. I also think cost alone is not a good path of argument. Costs on an economy level are circular - they are somebody else's income. Also, much of health care is "optional", whatever level people want. The more important point is what does that money flow achieve. According to the analysis I am aware of it achieves less, in the US, on average. And US military spending since WWII wasn't and isn't high out of the goodness of American's hearts either. The US spend that much because it was beneficial at least from the point of view of those who got to make those spending decisions, and I'm sure they didn't have "foreigners" interests in mind but their own.

remcob 7y ago

Per capita amounts are more relevant here: 442B in Germany is 5K per capita. 3498B in the US is 11K per capita. So the spending difference is even more in US's favour.