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I stand by my whataboutism. A woman responding in a survey that she feels the victim of gender-based discrimination is doing nothing to substantiate her claim,
by stakhanov 7y ago
I stand by my whataboutism. A woman responding in a survey that she feels the victim of gender-based discrimination is doing nothing to substantiate her claim, not even giving her name if it was an anonymous survey. All it takes for her is to not get the promotion and some wheels grinding in her head going "Surely, it must be because I'm a woman". That kind of evidence does not weigh more heavily than evidence that exists in black-and-white in the form of rulebooks and institutional policy for funding agencies and science organizations which plainly state that women are to be put at an advantage. -- Some of the things I described were bits of anecdotal evidence. But the thing I wrote about the structure of the DOC scholarship is black-on-white evidence of discrimination against men, and many people commented with pointers to similar things.
About the survey: The question is actually a leading question. Why is sexual harrassment and gender-based discrimination being put in the same category? That very phrasing already suggests "If your boss got a little drunk at the company event, leading him to say nice things about your perfume, you clearly have a very good reason to presume that you not getting the promotion has something to do with that. Do you agree that's what happened to you in the last year?" If you phrase it like that, and 93% of the women go "Well, ... no!" then, really, I must complement the upstanding gentlemen of Max Planck!
About your third paragraph, which strikes me as a very recognizable feminist narrative from the 80s, just a few points that I'd raise as food for thought: (a) The way these organizations, in particular, work, it's not a game of musical chairs where you lose when you don't do the right thing at a key point in time. They are very flat organizations, more bazaar than cathedral, with reverse-hockeystick careerpaths. If you go away for a year, you just get to the same point in your career a year later. (b) Nowadays, men in Austria and Germany, when they have children, generally do take the opportunity that the law prescribes that parenting time can be split between man and woman. Not a single one of the men that I grew up with in Austria was an exception to that rule when they had a child. Not a single male colleague that had a child during the time I was working for a German company was an exception to that rule. When their wives interrupted their careers, so did they. Again, anecdotal. But there you go. (c) Austria is one of the countries with the lowest Gini-coefficients in the world. If everybody earns the same, what is the point of that "money is power is status and women don't have any" narrative? Many women prefer to be teachers, nurses, etc. If that doesn't lessen their status in society, then how do you explain it to a 5-year-old girl that wants to play with dolls, not robots, that you think that that's a problem?
- whatshisface 7y ago>If that doesn't lessen their status in society Well that line got me thinking, because it absolutely does. Nurses have lower status than doctors and teachers have lower status than professors. For that matter, dolls have lower status than robots, there are heavily pushed competitions for Lego robots with prizes and institutional support but I've never heard of a competition for doll narrative building. Anti-natalists might think that they're a rebellious rationalist subculture, but I think they're closer to a direct expression of what our society values.
- deleted 7y ago[deleted]
- Der_Einzige 7y agoMost antinatalists reject rationalism. No, not "rationality", "rationalism" as a philosophical position
- cc81 7y agoBut that follows logically does it not as one is more difficult than the other? I think a more interesting comparison would be what has highest status between a male software developer and a female nurse? If we ignore compensation because software development is in a pretty special situation right now. I have no idea of answer myself.
- whatshisface 7y ago>one is more difficult than the other That in and of itself is a weird one. I used to think that physics was harder than sociology, because of the stereotype that physicists were smarter than sociologists. Then I realized that whatever it is that sociologists do, you could make it twice as hard by making them do twice as much, or by raising the quality standards twice as high. Likewise you could make physics the easiest science by altering the publication requirements to be, well, easier than every other science. It's not that studying the universe is harder in any objective way than studying sociology, it's that what counts as success is defined based on other people's success. To use doctors as an example, the standard for how good you have to be to practice would get lower if all humans were altered to be half as good at medicine. At the same time, med school for doctors is far harder than med school for nurses. I'm not sure what sets the hard-ness levels for these different fields, but the point is, we absolutely could have a society where nurses were driven twice as hard and had to be twice as smart as doctors, but for some reason that didn't happen.