5 ms·

> I'd assume that, given more hurdles for women than for men, the women who do make it are likely to be more qualified than men, not less. Sure — ashelmire's p

by zeveb 7y ago

> I'd assume that, given more hurdles for women than for men, the women who do make it are likely to be more qualified than men, not less. Sure — ashelmire's point was that right now there are more hurdles for men, which leads to men being more likely to be more qualified than women, which perpetuates and amplifies a stereotype.

mcv 7y ago
Maybe in some very specific situations there are indeed more hurdles for men than for women, but in general, in STEM in particular, there are clearly more hurdles for women than for men, as evidenced by the fact that more men than women make it through. Though I don't think the solution is to compensate by creating more hurdles for men; we need to identify and remove the hurdles for women. And whatever hurdles remain for men.
- DuskStar 7y ago
  > there are clearly more hurdles for women than for men, as evidenced by the fact that more men than women make it through This has three very large assumptions: 1. Men and women share the same distribution of relevant abilities 2. Men and women share the same distribution of relevant interests 3. Men and women share the same distribution of societal expectations and external opportunities A lot of people seem to assume that either #1 or #2 are false, and there's research to support #2 being false. #3 being false also seems intuitively obvious to me, given that it's stereotypically more acceptable to be a housewife than a househusband (as one example of many).
  - gurkendoktor 7y ago
    A couple of links related to these assumptions, which have somehow become truisms in our culture. Re: 1, the Variability Hypothesis[1] argues that men have a different, "wider" distribution than women in many categories, including intelligence. Re: 2, this Slate Star Codex article[2] is full of relevant pointers. Discrimination sucks and we must push back when we see it, but not every difference in representation is automatically a sign of discrimination. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Variability_hypothesis#Modern_studies https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Variability_hypothesis#Modern_... [2] https://slatestarcodex.com/2017/08/07/contra-grant-on-exaggerated-differences/ https://slatestarcodex.com/2017/08/07/contra-grant-on-exagge...
  - mcv 7y ago
    3 is the big one. I once heard Neil DeGrasse Tyson talk about how every time he said he'd want to become an astrophysicist, people would ask him if he shouldn't become an athlete. He was a good wrestler, wasn't he? Athlete is a socially acceptable career for black men. I can't help but wonder how many potential astrophysicists became athletes instead due to such social pressure. Social expectations can be a real hurdle.

by zeveb 7y ago

mcv 7y ago

Maybe in some very specific situations there are indeed more hurdles for men than for women, but in general, in STEM in particular, there are clearly more hurdles for women than for men, as evidenced by the fact that more men than women make it through. Though I don't think the solution is to compensate by creating more hurdles for men; we need to identify and remove the hurdles for women. And whatever hurdles remain for men.

DuskStar 7y ago
> there are clearly more hurdles for women than for men, as evidenced by the fact that more men than women make it through This has three very large assumptions: 1. Men and women share the same distribution of relevant abilities 2. Men and women share the same distribution of relevant interests 3. Men and women share the same distribution of societal expectations and external opportunities A lot of people seem to assume that either #1 or #2 are false, and there's research to support #2 being false. #3 being false also seems intuitively obvious to me, given that it's stereotypically more acceptable to be a housewife than a househusband (as one example of many).
- gurkendoktor 7y ago
  A couple of links related to these assumptions, which have somehow become truisms in our culture. Re: 1, the Variability Hypothesis[1] argues that men have a different, "wider" distribution than women in many categories, including intelligence. Re: 2, this Slate Star Codex article[2] is full of relevant pointers. Discrimination sucks and we must push back when we see it, but not every difference in representation is automatically a sign of discrimination. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Variability_hypothesis#Modern_studies https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Variability_hypothesis#Modern_... [2] https://slatestarcodex.com/2017/08/07/contra-grant-on-exaggerated-differences/ https://slatestarcodex.com/2017/08/07/contra-grant-on-exagge...
- mcv 7y ago
  3 is the big one. I once heard Neil DeGrasse Tyson talk about how every time he said he'd want to become an astrophysicist, people would ask him if he shouldn't become an athlete. He was a good wrestler, wasn't he? Athlete is a socially acceptable career for black men. I can't help but wonder how many potential astrophysicists became athletes instead due to such social pressure. Social expectations can be a real hurdle.