6 ms·

Bullies on the team are useful. And experienced managers and administrators know this. Managers protect people from bullies, when the value of the person to the

by kodz4 7y ago

Bullies on the team are useful. And experienced managers and administrators know this. Managers protect people from bullies, when the value of the person to the team is greater than the value of the bully to the team. #FactOfLife Look at the way society is handling Prime Bully Trump. He has written the text book for all other bullies to follow. And they happily will, taking a piss on whatever social norm or code of conduct, everyone else is obediently following. If he can climb to the top of the hill, they know they can too. You don't want Bullies in an org, you have to be better than them and more useful than them. It's that simple.

frereubu 7y ago
Counterpoint: bullies are poisonous to teams. They drain morale, make people spend emotional energy resisting their bullying rather than working, and often shout down people with better ideas.
- mieseratte 7y ago
  > and often shout down people with better ideas. Interesting. In my experience bullies tend to play politics rather than out-and-out shouting matches.
  - frereubu 7y ago
    I'm sure that happens too. I didn't really mean "shouting" to me taken literally, but it's out in the open rather than subtle behind-the-scenes manoeuvring. My experience is from academia where it's pretty difficult to fire someone without going through a long drawn-out process which is often more draining than trying to ignore the bullying, at least in the short term, and with an uncertain end. This means that pretty undisguised derision can be let slip if that person is relatively powerful.
roscorollo 7y ago
That's a pretty disgusting comment to be honest. It's very disingenuous too, being a bully is a personality issue and shouldn't have any place in a professional setting. It makes others uncomfortable and leads to unnecessary confrontations and distraction. It's a very obvious personality flaw too, it's always aimed at someone in a lower position of power than yourself. Go try and bully your manager or department head, see how that works out.
Angostura 7y ago
> Bullies on the team are useful. Describe to me the special utility of a bully, which cannot be provided by someone employing non-bullying methods. To avoid confusion, let's use a dictionary definition of bully Oxford: A person who habitually seeks to harm or intimidate those whom they perceive as vulnerable. Dictionary.com: a blustering, quarrelsome, overbearing person who habitually badgers and intimidates smaller or weaker people.
29athrowaway 7y ago
> Bullies on the team are useful. > You don't want Bullies in an org, you have to be better than them and more useful than them. Doing absolutely nothing (no work done) is better than bullying (negative work done). Your "fact of life" is not only unethical but if proven it can be grounds for constructive discharge.
- mat4magic 7y ago
  I think there is one function. To basically remove people who cant stand up for themselves. If they cant stand up for themselves i guess they wont do it for me either which makes me not wanna work with them. So a little bit friction/bullying isnt that bad i guess. If often goes too far though
  - cgriswald 7y ago
    If they’re being bullied and you don’t do anything about it, you seem to fail your own criteria for wanting someone on a team. The usefulness of “standing up for yourself” for which you claim bullying is a good test, only seems to have faculty when bullying is present.
    - mat4magic 7y ago
      Where did i say i dont? You can stand up for yourself while others support you. Its not mutually exclusive You always have Situations where something did go wrong. Usually multiple persons involved. Owning up their share of the blame has a corellation to standing up for yourself in my experience
      - cgriswald 7y ago
        > Where did i say i dont? You implied it by suggesting bullying is useful for getting rid of those people. I don't know how you advocate for them being bullied and removed, yet stand up for them at the same time. > Owning up their share of the blame has a corellation to standing up for yourself in my experience I would not be surprised if there is a correlation; but the causality seems pretty obvious to me. If you were bullied would you admit to anything that might result in more bullying? What if the people who supposedly support you are secretly hoping you fail? I have no problem standing up for myself, even if I have no support. I also have no problem with the truth. I'll look my boss in the eye and tell him if I screwed up. I do it out of respect and because I'm about solving problems, even if I created it. But, if he's a bully and the only thing that is going to happen is I'm going to get more abuse? Well, I've probably already complained to HR and/or quit, but if I haven't... screw that guy. He can prove I was the one who screwed up or he can stuff it. But let's not forget the context: bullies are useful. So what if the bully is the one who screwed up? Is he going to take his share of the blame? Doubtful. My guess is he blames his victim.
mcv 7y ago
Your example shows that merely being better or more useful is not enough. Bullies get to the top of the hill not through competence, but through bullying.

by kodz4 7y ago

frereubu 7y ago

Counterpoint: bullies are poisonous to teams. They drain morale, make people spend emotional energy resisting their bullying rather than working, and often shout down people with better ideas.

mieseratte 7y ago
> and often shout down people with better ideas. Interesting. In my experience bullies tend to play politics rather than out-and-out shouting matches.
- frereubu 7y ago
  I'm sure that happens too. I didn't really mean "shouting" to me taken literally, but it's out in the open rather than subtle behind-the-scenes manoeuvring. My experience is from academia where it's pretty difficult to fire someone without going through a long drawn-out process which is often more draining than trying to ignore the bullying, at least in the short term, and with an uncertain end. This means that pretty undisguised derision can be let slip if that person is relatively powerful.

roscorollo 7y ago

That's a pretty disgusting comment to be honest. It's very disingenuous too, being a bully is a personality issue and shouldn't have any place in a professional setting. It makes others uncomfortable and leads to unnecessary confrontations and distraction. It's a very obvious personality flaw too, it's always aimed at someone in a lower position of power than yourself. Go try and bully your manager or department head, see how that works out.

Angostura 7y ago

> Bullies on the team are useful. Describe to me the special utility of a bully, which cannot be provided by someone employing non-bullying methods. To avoid confusion, let's use a dictionary definition of bully Oxford: A person who habitually seeks to harm or intimidate those whom they perceive as vulnerable. Dictionary.com: a blustering, quarrelsome, overbearing person who habitually badgers and intimidates smaller or weaker people.

29athrowaway 7y ago

> Bullies on the team are useful. > You don't want Bullies in an org, you have to be better than them and more useful than them. Doing absolutely nothing (no work done) is better than bullying (negative work done). Your "fact of life" is not only unethical but if proven it can be grounds for constructive discharge.

mat4magic 7y ago
I think there is one function. To basically remove people who cant stand up for themselves. If they cant stand up for themselves i guess they wont do it for me either which makes me not wanna work with them. So a little bit friction/bullying isnt that bad i guess. If often goes too far though
- cgriswald 7y ago
  If they’re being bullied and you don’t do anything about it, you seem to fail your own criteria for wanting someone on a team. The usefulness of “standing up for yourself” for which you claim bullying is a good test, only seems to have faculty when bullying is present.
  - mat4magic 7y ago
    Where did i say i dont? You can stand up for yourself while others support you. Its not mutually exclusive You always have Situations where something did go wrong. Usually multiple persons involved. Owning up their share of the blame has a corellation to standing up for yourself in my experience
    - cgriswald 7y ago
      > Where did i say i dont? You implied it by suggesting bullying is useful for getting rid of those people. I don't know how you advocate for them being bullied and removed, yet stand up for them at the same time. > Owning up their share of the blame has a corellation to standing up for yourself in my experience I would not be surprised if there is a correlation; but the causality seems pretty obvious to me. If you were bullied would you admit to anything that might result in more bullying? What if the people who supposedly support you are secretly hoping you fail? I have no problem standing up for myself, even if I have no support. I also have no problem with the truth. I'll look my boss in the eye and tell him if I screwed up. I do it out of respect and because I'm about solving problems, even if I created it. But, if he's a bully and the only thing that is going to happen is I'm going to get more abuse? Well, I've probably already complained to HR and/or quit, but if I haven't... screw that guy. He can prove I was the one who screwed up or he can stuff it. But let's not forget the context: bullies are useful. So what if the bully is the one who screwed up? Is he going to take his share of the blame? Doubtful. My guess is he blames his victim.

mcv 7y ago

Your example shows that merely being better or more useful is not enough. Bullies get to the top of the hill not through competence, but through bullying.