8 ms·

Nobody talks about the real reason to use tabs over spaces

122 points by kbr 7y ago

Grue3 7y ago
Well, Lisp code can't be properly indented with just tabs. So tough luck, I guess? Why wouldn't editors programmers use allow to customize indentation space size instead? So you could set up each indentation space = 2 characters and get huge indents. Or set it to 1/2 character and get tiny indents. Seems easy to implement in e.g. Emacs.
- eberfreitas 7y ago
  Also, you couldn't possibly follow ruby's style guide with tabs: https://rubystyle.guide/#indent-conditional-assignment https://rubystyle.guide/#indent-conditional-assignment
- taeric 7y ago
  Why can't it? Fixed width tabs, sure, but tab stops would work fine. It is more work in the editor, so I don't expect it anytime soon. Especially not with consistency. But it is doable.
th0ma5 7y ago
I wouldn't necessarily recommend jEdit, but I'm sure a lot of editors have a soft tabs feature like it. And with linters I can't imagine you couldn't just run your local fork with which ever have the integration make the production version be which ever. Anyway... I personally don't care what you do so long as you try to do the simplest and least and obvious thing.
- runarberg 7y ago
  Exactly. I think this debate is kind of outdated, we have tools now to deal with stuff like this. Even the OP argument of the visually impaired doesn’t really matter as long as you set your auto formatted to use block indentation and no alignment (sorry gofmt!). Just use a font face the smooshes the whitespace together if you need small indentation with a large font size, or one that draws it out if you need to exaggerate it.
deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
hermitdev 7y ago
Personally, I prefer hard tabs to spaces. The rationale is simple: every single dev I've worked with has had a separate preference on how many spaces ahould be used for an indent. I've seen 2, 3 and 4 commonly used. If you use hard tabs, every dev can set their editor to their indentation of choice. If you use spaces, that freedom is lost. I say this as a currently predominantly Python dev, where spaces are encouraged and recommended, but I disagree as stated above. Currently, I prefer a 2 space indent after previously using a 4 space indent for decades.
- wahern 7y ago
  > If you use spaces, that freedom is lost. That freedom isn't lost. As the pro-space camp is wont to point out, you're free to pile on another layer of translation software to revert the translation software that transformed the original tab input to a set of spaces. And because everybody is using programmable IDEs (or IDEs that have had all possible programs precompiled into them), this translation will be part of your 10MB init config file, and because it's 2019 the translation is guaranteed to work with 100% fidelity. It's seamless! Also, Google uses spaces, and if it's good enough for them, end of story. No matter that KNF (kernel normal form) for Linux, Solaris, and all the BSDs uses hard tabs, not to mention countless GNU projects. Unix developers aren't accustomed to writing readable, shareable source code that interoperates with a diverse set of tooling.
  - rendall 7y ago
    "Also, Google uses spaces, and if it's good enough for them, end of story" That's no argument EDIT: The commenter is being sarcastic. Don't downvote them :)
    - wahern 7y ago
      A commenter in that Reddit thread made that argument, more or less: https://www.reddit.com/r/javascript/comments/c8drjo/nobody_talks_about_the_real_reason_to_use_tabs/esmgl4j?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x https://www.reddit.com/r/javascript/comments/c8drjo/nobody_t...
    - 7y ago
jchw 7y ago
The knee-jerk reaction is almost certainly going to go along the lines of “But you can emulate all of those features with spaces anyways!” Which is true. But what if my tools don’t all do that? What if doing so makes it harder to work for some reason or another? Users who use this tab emulation will experience all of the downsides that spaces are supposed to avoid, like misaligning justified comments. I think it’s a waste of effort. All I can say is, I appreciate the Go team’s decision to use tabs. It makes semantic sense, it puts everyone on the same playing field, and it doesn’t require editor support. Even Windows 98 notepad can be used comfortably as a code editor for tabs-based code, if you for some reason wanted to do that. In reality that is not necessary or desired, but it illustrates that this is the path of least resistance. That web browsers handle tabs poorly is of no concern to me. If it were really a huge problem, pretty much any editor in existence can do a Replace All to get back perfect spaces-indented code.
- runarberg 7y ago
  I really don’t care about tabs vs. spaces anymore. I just go with what ever my auto formatter uses. But I do think we have been having the wrong argument all these years, and I think the proliferation of auto formatters are setting us straight, finally. The issue is not tabs vs. spaces. It is block indentation vs. alignment. If you use alignment you are forced to use monospace fonts, if you use alignment with tabs, everyone is forced to set the same tab-stop (missing the point of tabs). Block indentation on the other hand allows people to use whatever font they want (including non-monospace fonts) and what ever tab-stop they want. At that point it doesn’t matter anymore whether the indentation is done using tabs or spaces. The preferred font settings of the developers can deal with it.
  - jasonhansel 7y ago
    Exactly! Personally I find alignment (as opposed to block indentation) an annoying abuse of monospacing, especially when it's produced by overzealous code formatters.
  - Ygg2 7y ago
    To be honest using non monospace font when coding should be be fireable offense. I mean good luck with diffing that.
amanzi 7y ago
I don't have a strong opinion on this long-running debate, but the example given sounds like a valid argument. I just changed my VS Code settings to not insert spaces when pressing tab ("editor.insertSpaces": false) and will see how it goes. Being able to change the tab size ("editor.tabSize": 4) already seems like a neat feature that will come in useful.
hn_throwaway_99 7y ago
Not going to get into the details of the argument (there is a reason tabs vs spaces is considered the prototypical "religious war"), but I do strongly disagree with the way it was argued, and I felt the need to comment because I so frequently see this type of discourse and find it very disheartening. It's what I usually call the "If you disagree with me you want to kill puppies" (or, in this case, "if you disagree with me you hate blind people") form of argument. The author really isn't inviting people to challenge his thinking with his final sentence - I feel like he's instead trying to flat out invalidate other opinions by emphasizing how callous you must be to have them. FWIW, I believe there are other opinions that are at least worthy of consideration, but I think other commenters have made those points as well.
- em-bee 7y ago
  so what are your counterarguments then? in your company code that only a known set of people need to work with, you can choose whatever suits the group. but in a public project, the argument that tabs help visually impaired coders is a serious point that is hard to refute.
  - pg_is_a_butt 7y ago
    The argument that a visually impaired coder doesn't already have an IDE that can detect spaces used for indentation automatically is impossible to refute.
  - nexuist 7y ago
    Even in private company code, there may well come a day when a vision impaired person is hired and has to work on the codebase. Even though the odds are low, you'd be setting yourself up for long term success if you make the switch now. Not saying that you should, just that it's always worth considering who will end up maintaining your code after you finish working on it.
    - WoahNoun 7y ago
      See for example this blog post: https://blog.aboutamazon.com/working-at-amazon/blind-since-birth-writing-code-at-amazon-since-2013 https://blog.aboutamazon.com/working-at-amazon/blind-since-b...
scarejunba 7y ago
Has more energy ever been expended more often for less gain than this debate? It is truly the most well-painted of bike sheds.
- koala_man 7y ago
  I didn't think there'd ever be anything new in this debate, but this is the first time I've heard the accessibility argument.
alex_duf 7y ago
Any visually impaired person to join the debate and help clarify? It seems everyone is giving their opinion except the affected population.
quickthrower2 7y ago
I was a tabs guy but now I’ve made peace with spaces. Honestly any IDE including low touch ones like Vim will auto indent for you anyway.
eterm 7y ago
What proponents of tabs over spaces miss is the fact that consistency is the most important thing. Editors ship with spaces over tabs as default, so you should use spaces over tabs. You will be more consistent with others and reduce errors if people somehow haven't picked up your configuration. Anything else is just fighting the tooling. Without consistency (hopefully brought by automation) you will find team members struggling with merge conflicts that were unecessary and only brought about because of whitespace changes. Since we started forcing prettier on stage we've seen a reduction in manual merge resolution being necessary. And if you're using a tool anyway to apply this consistency, the decision just becomes the following, do you use the defaults or a custom configuration? Your life will be a lot easier if you just go along with the defaults, even if they aren't your first preference. That's not to say you can't custommise anything (e.g. the default line width of 80 in prettier is too low) but you should have a very good reason to do so. And as others have pointed out, this isn't one of them because tooling can recognise spaces as tabs just as they recognise tabs and still adjust accordingly.
- wahern 7y ago
  > Editors ship with spaces over tabs as default, so you should use spaces over tabs. You will be more consistent with others and reduce errors if people somehow haven't picked up your configuration. Actually, no, that's a very recent thing. Tabs were the default for decades in the vast majority of editors, particularly on Unix. Even today, if I fire up most vi implementations (I really only use nvi on BSD) tab is the default. Pretty sure this is still the case for vim and emacs, too, and might still be the case for other common text editors like nano. There's no denying that spaces are far more popular now in general, but I'll have to draw the line at whitewashing history. I haven't been programming for nearly as long as many people here, but IME it felt like the mainstreaming of C++, which brought the Windows/Visual Studio crowd into open source, in tandem with Python[1], were responsible for the dominance of spaces. Even Java code eventually capitulated, where standard practice was originally all tabs owing to it's genesis at Sun. Unix-related software and open source was almost entirely tabs until the early aughts. You can look at the source code yourself, though it's not always obvious because tabs being tabs the indentation usually looks natural regardless of your tab stop. As I mention elsethread, Linux, all the BSDs, etc still use tabs. Projects with a sufficiently long pedigree typically still use tabs. (Says a user of JOE, still bitter that Joe relented and changed the default indentation to spaces a few years ago.) [1] I always wondered how Python ended up standardizing on spaces. I was never into Python, but IIRC Guido preferred tabs. I'm sure there's a story behind it, and have an inkling it's related to the onslaught of developers who cut their teeth in the Windows ecosystem.
swsieber 7y ago
Did you know that you can abuse font ligatures to have adjustable indents even when using spaces and not tabs? Its possible using font ligautures to turn predefined sequences of characters into a different set of glyphs. This is usually used to display nicely joined letters, or rendering multi-character math symbols as a nicer single wide character. An example of the letters thing is the sequence "fi" on mac. It's one I see on macs and in my android keyboard autocomplete. But you can abuse it. I took a mac fixed width font and added a ligature that turned four spaces into three spaces. And what do you know, it actually worked. I tried it in IntelliJ and with whitespace highlighting on, it correctly takes up 3 spaces but has 4 space markings - so IntelliJ handles it properly. I don't advocate this, but i would like to make a cli tool someday that lets you take a ttf and add in whater spacing conversion ligature you want.
- Gibbon1 7y ago
  That's disgusting and I liek lots. Every time this subject comes up I get farther down on the opinion that not moving forward from file formats based on what a Model 33 Teletype was capable dealing with is a mistake that keeps on giving.
Stratoscope 7y ago
What most of these discussions leave out is that you can't just say "use spaces instead of tabs." You have to say how many spaces. Is it 2? 3? 4? 8? How many? If you use spaces, you are committing to say how many will represent one indent. And please take note of how your choice affects the visually impaired programmers from the Reddit thread. Or someone like me who finds monospaced fonts hard to read and proportional fonts much more legible. But why do you even need to say this? Why should it matter how many spaces represent an indent level? The only time it really matters is when you not only use indentation, you use column alignment, like this: myFunctionThatDoesStuff(someArgument, andThisCalculatedOne(anArgumentThatMeansSomething, anotherWordyName)); This style is mandated by many coding standards, including Google's C++ standard. If you use an alignment-based style, you had better use spaces, or else you are in the "tabs for indentation, spaces for alignment" muddle. What would happen if you abandon column alignment and use only indentation: myFunctionThatDoesStuff( someArgument, andThisCalculatedOne( anArgumentThatMeansSomething, anotherWordyName ) ); Here the parentheses are treated just like curly braces: if you need to line stuff up, don't do it at whatever column things happened to fall on, do it by indentation only. That's how we code curly brace blocks. Now your code will be just as readable if it's indented with tabs, or with whatever number of spaces you like. If we coded curly brace blocks the way these standards require us to use parenthesized expressions, our code would end up looking like this: if(someBooleanExpression) {someFunctionCall(); if(anotherBooleanExpression) {doSomething(); doAnotherThing();}} Do you code like that? Do you want to code like that? Then why do you format code like that (if you do) simply because the delimiters happen to be parentheses instead of curly braces? If you stop using column alignment, and start using indentation instead, so many problems go away. Space indentation (and how many spaces?) no longer has any advantage over tabs. I sometimes wonder why so many coding standards mandate column alignment. I think it is because people get tired of talking about it and say "we must agree on something, now! And we will stick with it forever." I've been in these discussions, and what happens is whoever is most "passionate" about their particular style gets their way. And that will usually be the person who is fussiest about these things, the person who loves fiddly column alignment. Why else would such an impractical approach be baked into so many coding standards?
Glyptodon 7y ago
So one thing I've wondered for a while is why every single non-public tab-indented project I've ever had to join (as opposed to create) has been a disaster from a consistent code formatting perspective.
- flukus 7y ago
  My experience is the opposite. When a project is tab indented and you have 1 guy indenting by 2 spaces and another by 4 the inconsistency is spotted pretty quickly, maybe this is what you're noticing?. When spaces are used it's easy for tabs to hide. Also there's a lot of crappy editors that don't handle smart tabs well, including some big, expensive, proprietary IDE's.
  - Glyptodon 7y ago
    I'm guessing at least part of it is different smart tab behavior, but I've opened files to find chunks that were indented with double tabs (as in one indent level was done as two tabs) in the middle files that were otherwise single tab indented and even weirder stuff that I suspect is because of somebody indenting wrapped text. (Yes, poor QC and Dev ops went along with it.)
scalablenotions 7y ago
So far, anyone who lives long enough becomes visually impaired. I hope to be able to still code when I've very old.
shitgoose 7y ago
click click click click click click click click vs tab sounds like a perfect embodiment of modern software development style.
- Sharparam 7y ago
  Do you seriously believe people are manually pressing the spacebar to indent with spaces, or are you trying to make a joke?
mikorym 7y ago
I don't see why people spend time on this. Someone mentioned recently (or maybe I dreamt this) that programming is really, really much more about the specification than the implementation. If your specification is done flawlessly, then the implementation follows from that. I had the idea a while ago of starting a alternative to Excel and then I realised it would be way more useful to simply document Excel's behavior.
- flukus 7y ago
  > I don't see why people spend time on this. Because control freaks still can't accept personal preferences and insist on uniformity, the idea that I won't indentation to look slightly different on my computer than it does on there's is a heresy. If they world were up to them they'd enforce other things like editor schemes, in fact some have tried to: https://vim.fandom.com/wiki/Modeline_magic https://vim.fandom.com/wiki/Modeline_magic First shalt thou press the Holy Tab. Then, shalt thou space to three. No more. No less. Three shalt be the number thou shalt space, and the number of the spacing shall be three. Four shalt thou not space, nor either space thou two, excepting that thou then proceed to three. Five is right out. Once the number three, being the third number, be reached, then, writest thou thy Holy code.
  - kazinator 7y ago
    The last thing we want is control freaks preparing instructions for machines to execute. Control freaks should be in politics, management, education, nursing and such, and stay the hell out of software.
Stratoscope 7y ago
Meta: I am curious why this suddenly dropped off the home page and down to around #98. It can't be the upvote-to-comment ratio, as there are 85 up votes and 43 comments. Was it a manual intervention?
- kazinator 7y ago
  Someone just set the vertical indent (form feed character) to 90 lines. It supposedly helps the humor-impaired.
Grumbledour 7y ago
As a visually impaired person myself, I often find it funny that people who are zealots about certain topics suddenly change their mind because someone with a "disability" (Which can mean nearly anyone tbh) is affected. Its weird, how the other humans opinion becomes suddenly more relevant because I guess they pity them? "I will fight Frank to the death on tabs vs. spaces, but Marry wears glasses so she is always right!" Humans are weird. And to weigh in on tabs vs spaces, or rather not, while I always set my preferred tab with and use the tab key to indent, I don't know what characters my tools insert and I don't or ever have cared.
- alex_duf 7y ago
  I don't think it's pity. There's a difference between having a petty argument about something that might cause a slight discomfort to someone, and something that will potentially exclude members of team. I don't think the form of that reddit post is great as it does have some guilt tripping, but I think the intention behind it is well meaning. Now whether it's true or not I'm not sure, we can only ask more visually impaired developers to join the debate so we can be informed
- dingaling 7y ago
  Yes, it is pity. Is that anything of which to be ashamed? No, it indicates empathy and a willingness to change to make a task easier for someone. I don't understand why you think that is weird. Perhaps the zealot hadn't considered that perspective beforehand.
  - Grumbledour 7y ago
    Being pitied is not a nice thing. Show Empathy to all humans. Pitying someone does not make you a better person.
- hunter2_ 7y ago
  If the author had written about how they used to omit alt text on all images and explain to co-workers how it's a waste of energy because it doesn't show up anyway, but then one day reached enlightenment about how some user agents do use it and many people using such agents are visually impaired, and promulgated that everyone should ensure that non-decorative, non-captioned images have alt text, would that also be a form of pity? Are all a11y efforts pitiful?
kazinator 7y ago
If editors respected logical indentation levels, tabs would be more feasible. Consider a pair of lines like: printk(KERN_INFO "%s: blah, blah %d\n", __func__, arg) This will work okay like so: [tab][tab]printk(KERN_INFO "%s: blah, blah %d\n", [tab][tab] __func__, arg) If we change the tab size, the alignment is preserved. Problem is, many editors in "mixed tabs and spaces" mode wants to fill the second line with the maximum possible number of tabs, and minimum spaces. It has no idea that the two belong to the same nesting level. Say that we have four-space tabs. Then the editor does this: [tab][tab]printk(KERN_INFO "%s: blah, blah %d\n", [tab][tab][tab] __func_, arg) four of our alignment spaces turn to a tab, followed by three spaces for alignment. Even if your True Scotsman's editor is smarter than this, someone on the team will use something that isn't and mess things up.
NikkiA 7y ago
I recently contributed to a GPL project that uses tabs+spaces, but I have emacs configured to not use tabs ever, at all. After the first git commit it was obvious that this was going to be a problem, the diff lines didn't match at all. So I'm seriously considering, after 38 years of being a die-hard 'spaces or death!' user to switch to using tabs with my tab-stop size configured to match my spaces preference.
frereubu 7y ago
One thing taught to me by an accessibility advocate in a university was that accessibility isn't just for people who have sensory problems, Accessibility is about making things accessible for everyone. Given that everyone seems to prefer their own indent size, using tabs and setting the tab width in the editor is an accessibility win for everyone, not just partially-sighted users. I've been a proponent of spaces until now because of consistency, but this argument has won me over to tabs.
andy_ppp 7y ago
My take: whatever the project is currently using, spaces or tabs, please keep it that way. You might think this is important but really you can find arguments for either way, consistency trumps everything.

122 points by kbr 7y ago

Well, Lisp code can't be properly indented with just tabs. So tough luck, I guess? Why wouldn't editors programmers use allow to customize indentation space size instead? So you could set up each indentation space = 2 characters and get huge indents. Or set it to 1/2 character and get tiny indents. Seems easy to implement in e.g. Emacs.

eberfreitas 7y ago
Also, you couldn't possibly follow ruby's style guide with tabs: https://rubystyle.guide/#indent-conditional-assignment https://rubystyle.guide/#indent-conditional-assignment
taeric 7y ago
Why can't it? Fixed width tabs, sure, but tab stops would work fine. It is more work in the editor, so I don't expect it anytime soon. Especially not with consistency. But it is doable.

th0ma5 7y ago

I wouldn't necessarily recommend jEdit, but I'm sure a lot of editors have a soft tabs feature like it. And with linters I can't imagine you couldn't just run your local fork with which ever have the integration make the production version be which ever. Anyway... I personally don't care what you do so long as you try to do the simplest and least and obvious thing.

runarberg 7y ago
Exactly. I think this debate is kind of outdated, we have tools now to deal with stuff like this. Even the OP argument of the visually impaired doesn’t really matter as long as you set your auto formatted to use block indentation and no alignment (sorry gofmt!). Just use a font face the smooshes the whitespace together if you need small indentation with a large font size, or one that draws it out if you need to exaggerate it.

deleted 7y ago

[deleted]

hermitdev 7y ago

Personally, I prefer hard tabs to spaces. The rationale is simple: every single dev I've worked with has had a separate preference on how many spaces ahould be used for an indent. I've seen 2, 3 and 4 commonly used. If you use hard tabs, every dev can set their editor to their indentation of choice. If you use spaces, that freedom is lost. I say this as a currently predominantly Python dev, where spaces are encouraged and recommended, but I disagree as stated above. Currently, I prefer a 2 space indent after previously using a 4 space indent for decades.

wahern 7y ago
> If you use spaces, that freedom is lost. That freedom isn't lost. As the pro-space camp is wont to point out, you're free to pile on another layer of translation software to revert the translation software that transformed the original tab input to a set of spaces. And because everybody is using programmable IDEs (or IDEs that have had all possible programs precompiled into them), this translation will be part of your 10MB init config file, and because it's 2019 the translation is guaranteed to work with 100% fidelity. It's seamless! Also, Google uses spaces, and if it's good enough for them, end of story. No matter that KNF (kernel normal form) for Linux, Solaris, and all the BSDs uses hard tabs, not to mention countless GNU projects. Unix developers aren't accustomed to writing readable, shareable source code that interoperates with a diverse set of tooling.
- rendall 7y ago
  "Also, Google uses spaces, and if it's good enough for them, end of story" That's no argument EDIT: The commenter is being sarcastic. Don't downvote them :)
  - wahern 7y ago
    A commenter in that Reddit thread made that argument, more or less: https://www.reddit.com/r/javascript/comments/c8drjo/nobody_talks_about_the_real_reason_to_use_tabs/esmgl4j?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x https://www.reddit.com/r/javascript/comments/c8drjo/nobody_t...
  - 7y ago

jchw 7y ago

The knee-jerk reaction is almost certainly going to go along the lines of “But you can emulate all of those features with spaces anyways!” Which is true. But what if my tools don’t all do that? What if doing so makes it harder to work for some reason or another? Users who use this tab emulation will experience all of the downsides that spaces are supposed to avoid, like misaligning justified comments. I think it’s a waste of effort. All I can say is, I appreciate the Go team’s decision to use tabs. It makes semantic sense, it puts everyone on the same playing field, and it doesn’t require editor support. Even Windows 98 notepad can be used comfortably as a code editor for tabs-based code, if you for some reason wanted to do that. In reality that is not necessary or desired, but it illustrates that this is the path of least resistance. That web browsers handle tabs poorly is of no concern to me. If it were really a huge problem, pretty much any editor in existence can do a Replace All to get back perfect spaces-indented code.

runarberg 7y ago
I really don’t care about tabs vs. spaces anymore. I just go with what ever my auto formatter uses. But I do think we have been having the wrong argument all these years, and I think the proliferation of auto formatters are setting us straight, finally. The issue is not tabs vs. spaces. It is block indentation vs. alignment. If you use alignment you are forced to use monospace fonts, if you use alignment with tabs, everyone is forced to set the same tab-stop (missing the point of tabs). Block indentation on the other hand allows people to use whatever font they want (including non-monospace fonts) and what ever tab-stop they want. At that point it doesn’t matter anymore whether the indentation is done using tabs or spaces. The preferred font settings of the developers can deal with it.
- jasonhansel 7y ago
  Exactly! Personally I find alignment (as opposed to block indentation) an annoying abuse of monospacing, especially when it's produced by overzealous code formatters.
- Ygg2 7y ago
  To be honest using non monospace font when coding should be be fireable offense. I mean good luck with diffing that.

amanzi 7y ago

I don't have a strong opinion on this long-running debate, but the example given sounds like a valid argument. I just changed my VS Code settings to not insert spaces when pressing tab ("editor.insertSpaces": false) and will see how it goes. Being able to change the tab size ("editor.tabSize": 4) already seems like a neat feature that will come in useful.

hn_throwaway_99 7y ago

Not going to get into the details of the argument (there is a reason tabs vs spaces is considered the prototypical "religious war"), but I do strongly disagree with the way it was argued, and I felt the need to comment because I so frequently see this type of discourse and find it very disheartening. It's what I usually call the "If you disagree with me you want to kill puppies" (or, in this case, "if you disagree with me you hate blind people") form of argument. The author really isn't inviting people to challenge his thinking with his final sentence - I feel like he's instead trying to flat out invalidate other opinions by emphasizing how callous you must be to have them. FWIW, I believe there are other opinions that are at least worthy of consideration, but I think other commenters have made those points as well.

em-bee 7y ago
so what are your counterarguments then? in your company code that only a known set of people need to work with, you can choose whatever suits the group. but in a public project, the argument that tabs help visually impaired coders is a serious point that is hard to refute.
- pg_is_a_butt 7y ago
  The argument that a visually impaired coder doesn't already have an IDE that can detect spaces used for indentation automatically is impossible to refute.
- nexuist 7y ago
  Even in private company code, there may well come a day when a vision impaired person is hired and has to work on the codebase. Even though the odds are low, you'd be setting yourself up for long term success if you make the switch now. Not saying that you should, just that it's always worth considering who will end up maintaining your code after you finish working on it.
  - WoahNoun 7y ago
    See for example this blog post: https://blog.aboutamazon.com/working-at-amazon/blind-since-birth-writing-code-at-amazon-since-2013 https://blog.aboutamazon.com/working-at-amazon/blind-since-b...

scarejunba 7y ago

Has more energy ever been expended more often for less gain than this debate? It is truly the most well-painted of bike sheds.

koala_man 7y ago
I didn't think there'd ever be anything new in this debate, but this is the first time I've heard the accessibility argument.

alex_duf 7y ago

Any visually impaired person to join the debate and help clarify? It seems everyone is giving their opinion except the affected population.

quickthrower2 7y ago

I was a tabs guy but now I’ve made peace with spaces. Honestly any IDE including low touch ones like Vim will auto indent for you anyway.

eterm 7y ago

What proponents of tabs over spaces miss is the fact that consistency is the most important thing. Editors ship with spaces over tabs as default, so you should use spaces over tabs. You will be more consistent with others and reduce errors if people somehow haven't picked up your configuration. Anything else is just fighting the tooling. Without consistency (hopefully brought by automation) you will find team members struggling with merge conflicts that were unecessary and only brought about because of whitespace changes. Since we started forcing prettier on stage we've seen a reduction in manual merge resolution being necessary. And if you're using a tool anyway to apply this consistency, the decision just becomes the following, do you use the defaults or a custom configuration? Your life will be a lot easier if you just go along with the defaults, even if they aren't your first preference. That's not to say you can't custommise anything (e.g. the default line width of 80 in prettier is too low) but you should have a very good reason to do so. And as others have pointed out, this isn't one of them because tooling can recognise spaces as tabs just as they recognise tabs and still adjust accordingly.

wahern 7y ago
> Editors ship with spaces over tabs as default, so you should use spaces over tabs. You will be more consistent with others and reduce errors if people somehow haven't picked up your configuration. Actually, no, that's a very recent thing. Tabs were the default for decades in the vast majority of editors, particularly on Unix. Even today, if I fire up most vi implementations (I really only use nvi on BSD) tab is the default. Pretty sure this is still the case for vim and emacs, too, and might still be the case for other common text editors like nano. There's no denying that spaces are far more popular now in general, but I'll have to draw the line at whitewashing history. I haven't been programming for nearly as long as many people here, but IME it felt like the mainstreaming of C++, which brought the Windows/Visual Studio crowd into open source, in tandem with Python[1], were responsible for the dominance of spaces. Even Java code eventually capitulated, where standard practice was originally all tabs owing to it's genesis at Sun. Unix-related software and open source was almost entirely tabs until the early aughts. You can look at the source code yourself, though it's not always obvious because tabs being tabs the indentation usually looks natural regardless of your tab stop. As I mention elsethread, Linux, all the BSDs, etc still use tabs. Projects with a sufficiently long pedigree typically still use tabs. (Says a user of JOE, still bitter that Joe relented and changed the default indentation to spaces a few years ago.) [1] I always wondered how Python ended up standardizing on spaces. I was never into Python, but IIRC Guido preferred tabs. I'm sure there's a story behind it, and have an inkling it's related to the onslaught of developers who cut their teeth in the Windows ecosystem.

swsieber 7y ago

Did you know that you can abuse font ligatures to have adjustable indents even when using spaces and not tabs? Its possible using font ligautures to turn predefined sequences of characters into a different set of glyphs. This is usually used to display nicely joined letters, or rendering multi-character math symbols as a nicer single wide character. An example of the letters thing is the sequence "fi" on mac. It's one I see on macs and in my android keyboard autocomplete. But you can abuse it. I took a mac fixed width font and added a ligature that turned four spaces into three spaces. And what do you know, it actually worked. I tried it in IntelliJ and with whitespace highlighting on, it correctly takes up 3 spaces but has 4 space markings - so IntelliJ handles it properly. I don't advocate this, but i would like to make a cli tool someday that lets you take a ttf and add in whater spacing conversion ligature you want.

Gibbon1 7y ago
That's disgusting and I liek lots. Every time this subject comes up I get farther down on the opinion that not moving forward from file formats based on what a Model 33 Teletype was capable dealing with is a mistake that keeps on giving.

Stratoscope 7y ago

What most of these discussions leave out is that you can't just say "use spaces instead of tabs." You have to say how many spaces. Is it 2? 3? 4? 8? How many? If you use spaces, you are committing to say how many will represent one indent. And please take note of how your choice affects the visually impaired programmers from the Reddit thread. Or someone like me who finds monospaced fonts hard to read and proportional fonts much more legible. But why do you even need to say this? Why should it matter how many spaces represent an indent level? The only time it really matters is when you not only use indentation, you use column alignment, like this: myFunctionThatDoesStuff(someArgument, andThisCalculatedOne(anArgumentThatMeansSomething, anotherWordyName)); This style is mandated by many coding standards, including Google's C++ standard. If you use an alignment-based style, you had better use spaces, or else you are in the "tabs for indentation, spaces for alignment" muddle. What would happen if you abandon column alignment and use only indentation: myFunctionThatDoesStuff( someArgument, andThisCalculatedOne( anArgumentThatMeansSomething, anotherWordyName ) ); Here the parentheses are treated just like curly braces: if you need to line stuff up, don't do it at whatever column things happened to fall on, do it by indentation only. That's how we code curly brace blocks. Now your code will be just as readable if it's indented with tabs, or with whatever number of spaces you like. If we coded curly brace blocks the way these standards require us to use parenthesized expressions, our code would end up looking like this: if(someBooleanExpression) {someFunctionCall(); if(anotherBooleanExpression) {doSomething(); doAnotherThing();}} Do you code like that? Do you want to code like that? Then why do you format code like that (if you do) simply because the delimiters happen to be parentheses instead of curly braces? If you stop using column alignment, and start using indentation instead, so many problems go away. Space indentation (and how many spaces?) no longer has any advantage over tabs. I sometimes wonder why so many coding standards mandate column alignment. I think it is because people get tired of talking about it and say "we must agree on something, now! And we will stick with it forever." I've been in these discussions, and what happens is whoever is most "passionate" about their particular style gets their way. And that will usually be the person who is fussiest about these things, the person who loves fiddly column alignment. Why else would such an impractical approach be baked into so many coding standards?

Glyptodon 7y ago

So one thing I've wondered for a while is why every single non-public tab-indented project I've ever had to join (as opposed to create) has been a disaster from a consistent code formatting perspective.

flukus 7y ago
My experience is the opposite. When a project is tab indented and you have 1 guy indenting by 2 spaces and another by 4 the inconsistency is spotted pretty quickly, maybe this is what you're noticing?. When spaces are used it's easy for tabs to hide. Also there's a lot of crappy editors that don't handle smart tabs well, including some big, expensive, proprietary IDE's.
- Glyptodon 7y ago
  I'm guessing at least part of it is different smart tab behavior, but I've opened files to find chunks that were indented with double tabs (as in one indent level was done as two tabs) in the middle files that were otherwise single tab indented and even weirder stuff that I suspect is because of somebody indenting wrapped text. (Yes, poor QC and Dev ops went along with it.)

scalablenotions 7y ago

So far, anyone who lives long enough becomes visually impaired. I hope to be able to still code when I've very old.

shitgoose 7y ago

click click click click click click click click vs tab sounds like a perfect embodiment of modern software development style.

Sharparam 7y ago
Do you seriously believe people are manually pressing the spacebar to indent with spaces, or are you trying to make a joke?

mikorym 7y ago

I don't see why people spend time on this. Someone mentioned recently (or maybe I dreamt this) that programming is really, really much more about the specification than the implementation. If your specification is done flawlessly, then the implementation follows from that. I had the idea a while ago of starting a alternative to Excel and then I realised it would be way more useful to simply document Excel's behavior.

flukus 7y ago
> I don't see why people spend time on this. Because control freaks still can't accept personal preferences and insist on uniformity, the idea that I won't indentation to look slightly different on my computer than it does on there's is a heresy. If they world were up to them they'd enforce other things like editor schemes, in fact some have tried to: https://vim.fandom.com/wiki/Modeline_magic https://vim.fandom.com/wiki/Modeline_magic First shalt thou press the Holy Tab. Then, shalt thou space to three. No more. No less. Three shalt be the number thou shalt space, and the number of the spacing shall be three. Four shalt thou not space, nor either space thou two, excepting that thou then proceed to three. Five is right out. Once the number three, being the third number, be reached, then, writest thou thy Holy code.
- kazinator 7y ago
  The last thing we want is control freaks preparing instructions for machines to execute. Control freaks should be in politics, management, education, nursing and such, and stay the hell out of software.

Stratoscope 7y ago

Meta: I am curious why this suddenly dropped off the home page and down to around #98. It can't be the upvote-to-comment ratio, as there are 85 up votes and 43 comments. Was it a manual intervention?

kazinator 7y ago
Someone just set the vertical indent (form feed character) to 90 lines. It supposedly helps the humor-impaired.

Grumbledour 7y ago

As a visually impaired person myself, I often find it funny that people who are zealots about certain topics suddenly change their mind because someone with a "disability" (Which can mean nearly anyone tbh) is affected. Its weird, how the other humans opinion becomes suddenly more relevant because I guess they pity them? "I will fight Frank to the death on tabs vs. spaces, but Marry wears glasses so she is always right!" Humans are weird. And to weigh in on tabs vs spaces, or rather not, while I always set my preferred tab with and use the tab key to indent, I don't know what characters my tools insert and I don't or ever have cared.

alex_duf 7y ago
I don't think it's pity. There's a difference between having a petty argument about something that might cause a slight discomfort to someone, and something that will potentially exclude members of team. I don't think the form of that reddit post is great as it does have some guilt tripping, but I think the intention behind it is well meaning. Now whether it's true or not I'm not sure, we can only ask more visually impaired developers to join the debate so we can be informed
dingaling 7y ago
Yes, it is pity. Is that anything of which to be ashamed? No, it indicates empathy and a willingness to change to make a task easier for someone. I don't understand why you think that is weird. Perhaps the zealot hadn't considered that perspective beforehand.
- Grumbledour 7y ago
  Being pitied is not a nice thing. Show Empathy to all humans. Pitying someone does not make you a better person.
hunter2_ 7y ago
If the author had written about how they used to omit alt text on all images and explain to co-workers how it's a waste of energy because it doesn't show up anyway, but then one day reached enlightenment about how some user agents do use it and many people using such agents are visually impaired, and promulgated that everyone should ensure that non-decorative, non-captioned images have alt text, would that also be a form of pity? Are all a11y efforts pitiful?

kazinator 7y ago

If editors respected logical indentation levels, tabs would be more feasible. Consider a pair of lines like: printk(KERN_INFO "%s: blah, blah %d\n", __func__, arg) This will work okay like so: [tab][tab]printk(KERN_INFO "%s: blah, blah %d\n", [tab][tab] __func__, arg) If we change the tab size, the alignment is preserved. Problem is, many editors in "mixed tabs and spaces" mode wants to fill the second line with the maximum possible number of tabs, and minimum spaces. It has no idea that the two belong to the same nesting level. Say that we have four-space tabs. Then the editor does this: [tab][tab]printk(KERN_INFO "%s: blah, blah %d\n", [tab][tab][tab] __func_, arg) four of our alignment spaces turn to a tab, followed by three spaces for alignment. Even if your True Scotsman's editor is smarter than this, someone on the team will use something that isn't and mess things up.

NikkiA 7y ago

I recently contributed to a GPL project that uses tabs+spaces, but I have emacs configured to not use tabs ever, at all. After the first git commit it was obvious that this was going to be a problem, the diff lines didn't match at all. So I'm seriously considering, after 38 years of being a die-hard 'spaces or death!' user to switch to using tabs with my tab-stop size configured to match my spaces preference.

frereubu 7y ago

One thing taught to me by an accessibility advocate in a university was that accessibility isn't just for people who have sensory problems, Accessibility is about making things accessible for everyone. Given that everyone seems to prefer their own indent size, using tabs and setting the tab width in the editor is an accessibility win for everyone, not just partially-sighted users. I've been a proponent of spaces until now because of consistency, but this argument has won me over to tabs.

andy_ppp 7y ago

My take: whatever the project is currently using, spaces or tabs, please keep it that way. You might think this is important but really you can find arguments for either way, consistency trumps everything.