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Just nitpicking on your arguments, but.. > snow falls off the rear windshield into the trunk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bkSuyXnCSO4 https://www.youtube.c

by trymas 7y ago

Just nitpicking on your arguments, but.. > snow falls off the rear windshield into the trunk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bkSuyXnCSO4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bkSuyXnCSO4 > no place to store sunglasses Most cars me and my family had - had no such thing (though I agree it's very convenient). I agree that Tesla is mass manufacturing newbie (slow to scale up, compared to the industry veterans), shoddy manufacturing practices/decisions, but they have things sorted where it matters though. Extremely well built batteries with superb longevity (Nissan Leaf's AFAIK are the worst, due to being air-cooled, etc.). Tesla has powerful and more efficient motors/batteries/drivetrain than competitors. Using adapters between power/data connectors is daily occurrence to me. I am not amazed we have this problem with relatively new tech of EVs. I am not sure about charging. Was there any standards when Tesla started developing their Superchargers and Model S, especially for Tesla's demands for very fast charges? Maybe they did not have any other option? P.S. all in all if not Tesla breathing into the car giants' backs (and probably if not diesel-gate), most manufacturers will not be aggressively expanding their EV line-ups now. They would do it in 5-15 years time, when more aggressive regulations would kick-in.

Alupis 7y ago
> > no place to store sunglasses > Most cars me and my family had - had no such thing (though I agree it's very convenient). OK, but we're not discussing budget cars - a Model 3 will run you $35,000 to $45,000+. That's premium car territory - and you should expect premium build quality and features. Skimping on a sunglasses holder is ridiculous for this price level, and while may be trivial by itself, it's indicative of the tier of design that went into the vehicle - budget.
- Retric 7y ago
  ~35k is currently more or less entry level for an electric car due to battery cost. The leaf for example is 31k, has a 150 mile range and many sacrifices. The bolt on the other hand is running $36,620 for the base model with a more reasonable range.
  - Alupis 7y ago
    Nissan Leaf can be had for ~$22k, and comes standard with a sunglasses holder. Without the rebate, it's a $29k car - still cheaper than the base $35k Model 3. They both get about the same range.
    - Retric 7y ago
      The 2019 leaf is listed at: S: $30,885 SV: $33,385 SL: $37,095 S Plus: $37,445 SV Plus: $39,405 SL Plus: $43,445 With the S, SV, and SL all having a 150 mile range. Now you might be able to pick one up below manufacturing cost, but that’s a different issue.
      - Alupis 7y ago
        Might depend where you live, but Nissan's website lists $29,990 MSRP, and $22,490 after Federal Tax Credit[1] That's, of course, before any negotiations. MSRP would naturally be above invoice price, which is of course above manufacturing cost. Where are your numbers coming from? [1] https://www.nissanusa.com/electric-cars/leaf-2019/ https://www.nissanusa.com/electric-cars/leaf-2019/
        Retric 7y ago
        Click the asterisk. “All prices listed herein are Manufacturer’s Suggested Retail Prices (MSRP), which exclude installation, taxes and other costs, and are subject to change without prior notice.” The 2019 Nissan Leaf S is priced at “$29,990,” plus a destination charge of $895. Though last I checked Tesla has a "destination fee" of $1,125 even if you pick it up at the factory.
        Alupis 7y ago
        I believe Tesla has a "no negotiation" policy too - encouraging people to purchase online at sticker price. At a traditional car dealership, practically nobody pays sticker price... the price you see advertised is the anchor point to start negotiations, ie. "worst case price".
- double0jimb0 7y ago
  $35k - $45k is hardly premium. Honda Accord moderately spec’d is high 30s.
  - FireBeyond 7y ago
    That's stretching it, "moderately". That's effectively the top model with all options ticked. The Sport model: $26,180 Your choice of paints, included. HondaSense, included. Want to add Chrome Alloy wheels, sure, $2,000. But you can then get -every- exterior option for about $1,000 (trim, door edges, puddle lights, splash guards, vanity grill). And -every- interior accessory for about another $1,000 (HomeLink, cargo, doorwell illumination, etc.). And -every- electronic accessory for well, just another $1,000 ($1,020 to be precise) - Engine block heater, parking sensors, additional USB charging ports, wireless charging for the dash. I'm not sure how turning on every single option, plus chrome alloy wheels for $30k becomes "moderate spec for high 30s".
    - double0jimb0 7y ago
      Most of those options are included when buying a car on a lot from a dealership (who of course make most money with the high margin options). Bare bones options are extremely rare to come by.
- double0jimb0 7y ago
  $35k - $45k is hardly premium. Honda Accord moderately spec’d is high 30s. Germans only added reasonable cup holders a decade ago.
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
- trymas 7y ago
  I consider volvo a premium brand, costing more than the typical cars. My volvo does not have a sunglasses holder. It's such a ridiculously 1st world problem to rant about - it's crazy. If it's top 3 problem with Teslas, then I think they are doing very well with their design and manufacturing.
Alupis 7y ago
> P.S. all in all if not Tesla breathing into the car giants' backs (and probably if not diesel-gate), most manufacturers will not be aggressively expanding their EV line-ups now. This doesn't seem to really be true. Most cars sold in the US are still not EV, and Tesla's ~245k[1] cars delivered in 2018 is really, really small compared to ~5.3 million cars sold in the US in 2018 in total[2]. Looks like of the 5.3 million sold in the US in 2018, about 361k[3] were EV's. So, ya, Tesla has the lion share of EV's delivered in 2018 (not necessarily sold in 2018, mind you), but EV's is still a very small market and no sign that it's being aggressively expanded beyond a few select customer bases. [1] https://www.statista.com/statistics/502208/tesla-quarterly-vehicle-deliveries/ https://www.statista.com/statistics/502208/tesla-quarterly-v... [2] https://www.statista.com/statistics/199974/us-car-sales-since-1951/ https://www.statista.com/statistics/199974/us-car-sales-sinc... [3] https://www.greentechmedia.com/articles/read/us-electric-vehicle-sales-increase-by-81-in-2018 https://www.greentechmedia.com/articles/read/us-electric-veh...

by trymas 7y ago

Alupis 7y ago

> > no place to store sunglasses > Most cars me and my family had - had no such thing (though I agree it's very convenient). OK, but we're not discussing budget cars - a Model 3 will run you $35,000 to $45,000+. That's premium car territory - and you should expect premium build quality and features. Skimping on a sunglasses holder is ridiculous for this price level, and while may be trivial by itself, it's indicative of the tier of design that went into the vehicle - budget.

Retric 7y ago
~35k is currently more or less entry level for an electric car due to battery cost. The leaf for example is 31k, has a 150 mile range and many sacrifices. The bolt on the other hand is running $36,620 for the base model with a more reasonable range.
- Alupis 7y ago
  Nissan Leaf can be had for ~$22k, and comes standard with a sunglasses holder. Without the rebate, it's a $29k car - still cheaper than the base $35k Model 3. They both get about the same range.
  - Retric 7y ago
    The 2019 leaf is listed at: S: $30,885 SV: $33,385 SL: $37,095 S Plus: $37,445 SV Plus: $39,405 SL Plus: $43,445 With the S, SV, and SL all having a 150 mile range. Now you might be able to pick one up below manufacturing cost, but that’s a different issue.
    - Alupis 7y ago
      Might depend where you live, but Nissan's website lists $29,990 MSRP, and $22,490 after Federal Tax Credit[1] That's, of course, before any negotiations. MSRP would naturally be above invoice price, which is of course above manufacturing cost. Where are your numbers coming from? [1] https://www.nissanusa.com/electric-cars/leaf-2019/ https://www.nissanusa.com/electric-cars/leaf-2019/
      - Retric 7y ago
        Click the asterisk. “All prices listed herein are Manufacturer’s Suggested Retail Prices (MSRP), which exclude installation, taxes and other costs, and are subject to change without prior notice.” The 2019 Nissan Leaf S is priced at “$29,990,” plus a destination charge of $895. Though last I checked Tesla has a "destination fee" of $1,125 even if you pick it up at the factory.
        Alupis 7y ago
        I believe Tesla has a "no negotiation" policy too - encouraging people to purchase online at sticker price. At a traditional car dealership, practically nobody pays sticker price... the price you see advertised is the anchor point to start negotiations, ie. "worst case price".
double0jimb0 7y ago
$35k - $45k is hardly premium. Honda Accord moderately spec’d is high 30s.
- FireBeyond 7y ago
  That's stretching it, "moderately". That's effectively the top model with all options ticked. The Sport model: $26,180 Your choice of paints, included. HondaSense, included. Want to add Chrome Alloy wheels, sure, $2,000. But you can then get -every- exterior option for about $1,000 (trim, door edges, puddle lights, splash guards, vanity grill). And -every- interior accessory for about another $1,000 (HomeLink, cargo, doorwell illumination, etc.). And -every- electronic accessory for well, just another $1,000 ($1,020 to be precise) - Engine block heater, parking sensors, additional USB charging ports, wireless charging for the dash. I'm not sure how turning on every single option, plus chrome alloy wheels for $30k becomes "moderate spec for high 30s".
  - double0jimb0 7y ago
    Most of those options are included when buying a car on a lot from a dealership (who of course make most money with the high margin options). Bare bones options are extremely rare to come by.
double0jimb0 7y ago
$35k - $45k is hardly premium. Honda Accord moderately spec’d is high 30s. Germans only added reasonable cup holders a decade ago.
deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
trymas 7y ago
I consider volvo a premium brand, costing more than the typical cars. My volvo does not have a sunglasses holder. It's such a ridiculously 1st world problem to rant about - it's crazy. If it's top 3 problem with Teslas, then I think they are doing very well with their design and manufacturing.

Alupis 7y ago

> P.S. all in all if not Tesla breathing into the car giants' backs (and probably if not diesel-gate), most manufacturers will not be aggressively expanding their EV line-ups now. This doesn't seem to really be true. Most cars sold in the US are still not EV, and Tesla's ~245k[1] cars delivered in 2018 is really, really small compared to ~5.3 million cars sold in the US in 2018 in total[2]. Looks like of the 5.3 million sold in the US in 2018, about 361k[3] were EV's. So, ya, Tesla has the lion share of EV's delivered in 2018 (not necessarily sold in 2018, mind you), but EV's is still a very small market and no sign that it's being aggressively expanded beyond a few select customer bases. [1] https://www.statista.com/statistics/502208/tesla-quarterly-vehicle-deliveries/ https://www.statista.com/statistics/502208/tesla-quarterly-v... [2] https://www.statista.com/statistics/199974/us-car-sales-since-1951/ https://www.statista.com/statistics/199974/us-car-sales-sinc... [3] https://www.greentechmedia.com/articles/read/us-electric-vehicle-sales-increase-by-81-in-2018 https://www.greentechmedia.com/articles/read/us-electric-veh...