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So I just read about "Choosing Boring Technology" before coming into this thread. I guess React.js is the boring technology (already 5-6 years) one and Svelte i

So I just read about "Choosing Boring Technology" before coming into this thread. I guess React.js is the boring technology (already 5-6 years) one and Svelte is the new and exiting one! :)

deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
bnt 7y ago
I’ve been holding off from React for a long time, but also after reading the “boring technology”, I came to realize React is in fact - here to stay.
- ScottFree 7y ago
  It'll be gone in 5 years. It's getting too big and too slow. Also, the react team managed to add hooks and useEffect in a way that makes it very easy to accidentally send your app into an infinite loop and not know why.
  - tomnipotent 7y ago
    > It'll be gone in 5 years. It's getting too big and too slow Funny, that's what everyone said 5 years ago. I'll bet on React to be here for another decade, no problem - there's just way too much momentum. In a way, it's Rails all over again (that's a positive).
    - ScottFree 7y ago
      Rails burned out in under 10 years. The reason I say React will be gone in another 5 years is because it's already been popular for 5 and the muttering has started. Do you remember Adobe Flex? React is following a shockingly similar path and timeline.
      - srgpqt 7y ago
        Still writing Rails today, nothing seems to come close, except maybe Phoenix sortof
      - tomnipotent 7y ago
        > Rails burned out in under 10 years It may not be the glory days, but Rail's is still going strong 13 years later. React, however, has reached a popularity many times larger than RoR ever did. https://trends.google.com/trends/explore?date=all&geo=US&q=ruby%20on%20rails,rails,React https://trends.google.com/trends/explore?date=all&geo=US&q=r... There has never been a project (I can think of), other than the Linux kernel, with the resources that companies and developers have put behind React. > Do you remember Adobe Flex Flex never came close to either RoR or React popularity, and was propelled mostly by the dying wave of ActionScript programmers from the aughts after cell phones killed the Flash game market.
        ScottFree 7y ago
        So is Flex[0]. What's your point? It's not popular anymore and hundreds if not thousands of code bases are being converted from both of these technologies into something else. [0]: https://trends.google.com/trends/explore?date=all&geo=US&q=ruby%20on%20rails,rails,React,adobe%20flex https://trends.google.com/trends/explore?date=all&geo=US&q=r...
        tomnipotent 7y ago
        > What's your point? Seriously? Adobe Flex was a closed-source and proprietary commercial offering capitalizing on the prior decade's popularity of Flash. React is open source with a vast and robust ecosystem of even more open source to go along with it. It couldn't be more night & day.
        ScottFree 7y ago
        > Adobe Flex was a closed-source and proprietary That confirms it: you aren't old enough to remember Flex. It was open source.
  - KuhlMensch 7y ago
    Hooks definitely need to be deeply learned, and has one of the steeper learning curves in React. But at its core, its solving a hard problem (lifecycle side-effects), in a way that is more functional, and produces more maintainable code. Thats a fair trade-off imho. And honestly, once you understand them, the infinite loops are deterministic and understandable. If you want a component-based view library that is written in js, and you are happy to take on the task of assembling a build-system, styling system, routing and of course state-management, I can't see much of an architectural improvement you could make over React. If you want batteries included - go with Vue. If you want the Ruby/spring opinion and batteries included go with Ember. Svelte looks kinda cool. But it seems to sit deep in the browser spec, and in my NAIVE opinion, it doesn't seem hold the component abstraction as something even valuable. It just wants you to script away. Which, is just movement within a trade-off space - if it suits you go for it.
    - jesseskinner 7y ago
      The component abstraction is primary with Svelte. Each file is a component and only one component. This means the only ceremony you need to create a component is to create a new file. It's a perfect solution in my opinion.
zdrummond 7y ago
To be clear, this is Svelte version 3, and the first commit was Nov 15, 2016. So the framework is technically 3+ years old. That said, I don't think boring is about age, but about real-world exposure
- iKevinShah 7y ago
  To be more in line with the article they're referring, its more about "known unknows" and "unknown unknowns"
Rotareti 7y ago
I went through the svelte examples and I was exited until I reached the If block example: {#if user.loggedIn} <button on:click={toggle}> Log out </button> {/if} To me such template language is a huge step back from JSX. JSX is JavaScript, thus you get the full power of the language (JS/TS) with the full support from your editor (type checking, auto-completion, etc.).
- dmitriid 7y ago
  I hate template languages myself. But in Svelte’s defence, their template language in version 3 seems to be well-designed and streamlined. It doesn’t have the ad-hoc nature of “oh crap we forgot to add if-then-else” of Angular or “let’s create half-a-dozen incompatible javascript-like DSLs” of Vue.
- KuhlMensch 7y ago
  Yeah I think I basically agree. Being able to simply write idiomatic javascript to compose elements is just so awesome. Though I would assume Editor support of Svelte can/is being built.
koffiezet 7y ago
My daytime job isn't primarily programming anymore, and frontend development has never even been my job. I used to do embedded and backend development, and am now in more of a ops/architect/automation consultant (freelance). I still need to code on a regular basis, and Go and Python are my go-to languages these days. On a regular basis, I encounter the need for a GUI for some API or backend I write, so I tried to get into a more modern Javascript eco system. I have created websites and even full-on forum software in a long forgotten past, so I have some basic old-school webdev and basic Javascript knowledge (from back when directly manipulating the DOM was still the way to go). So take this as a bit of an outsider look on things, who is confronted with full-time Javascript developers on a daily basis. When I started looking into react, vue, ... it always overwhelmed me. Whatever I started doing, according to someone, it's bad practice and should just do Y instead of X. Nobody seems to agree on best practices, and there seems to be a whole lot of 'magic' going on in all those frameworks, and knowing where to start is an absolute mess. It's confusing as hell. Now I quickly went through the tutorial and examples on the Svelte site and it felt pretty simple, I can reason with how it works behind the scenes, and can read the generated Javascript to verify that that's really what's going on. It makes the whole thing seem more manageable in my head. As far as "the new exciting one" goes - what appeals most to me personally is its simplicity. One of the reasons Go also appealed to me. It was exciting for a while, but ended up being the boring 'it just works' solution which completely replaced C and C++ in my life (that's not a jab at these languages, they have their uses, I just don't need them anymore)
- jesseskinner 7y ago
  I've been doing web development professionally for two decades but I feel exactly the same way. It couldn't be any simpler!

So I just read about "Choosing Boring Technology" before coming into this thread. I guess React.js is the boring technology (already 5-6 years) one and Svelte is the new and exiting one! :)

deleted 7y ago

[deleted]

bnt 7y ago

I’ve been holding off from React for a long time, but also after reading the “boring technology”, I came to realize React is in fact - here to stay.

ScottFree 7y ago
It'll be gone in 5 years. It's getting too big and too slow. Also, the react team managed to add hooks and useEffect in a way that makes it very easy to accidentally send your app into an infinite loop and not know why.
- tomnipotent 7y ago
  > It'll be gone in 5 years. It's getting too big and too slow Funny, that's what everyone said 5 years ago. I'll bet on React to be here for another decade, no problem - there's just way too much momentum. In a way, it's Rails all over again (that's a positive).
  - ScottFree 7y ago
    Rails burned out in under 10 years. The reason I say React will be gone in another 5 years is because it's already been popular for 5 and the muttering has started. Do you remember Adobe Flex? React is following a shockingly similar path and timeline.
    - srgpqt 7y ago
      Still writing Rails today, nothing seems to come close, except maybe Phoenix sortof
    - tomnipotent 7y ago
      > Rails burned out in under 10 years It may not be the glory days, but Rail's is still going strong 13 years later. React, however, has reached a popularity many times larger than RoR ever did. https://trends.google.com/trends/explore?date=all&geo=US&q=ruby%20on%20rails,rails,React https://trends.google.com/trends/explore?date=all&geo=US&q=r... There has never been a project (I can think of), other than the Linux kernel, with the resources that companies and developers have put behind React. > Do you remember Adobe Flex Flex never came close to either RoR or React popularity, and was propelled mostly by the dying wave of ActionScript programmers from the aughts after cell phones killed the Flash game market.
      - ScottFree 7y ago
        So is Flex[0]. What's your point? It's not popular anymore and hundreds if not thousands of code bases are being converted from both of these technologies into something else. [0]: https://trends.google.com/trends/explore?date=all&geo=US&q=ruby%20on%20rails,rails,React,adobe%20flex https://trends.google.com/trends/explore?date=all&geo=US&q=r...
        tomnipotent 7y ago
        > What's your point? Seriously? Adobe Flex was a closed-source and proprietary commercial offering capitalizing on the prior decade's popularity of Flash. React is open source with a vast and robust ecosystem of even more open source to go along with it. It couldn't be more night & day.
        ScottFree 7y ago
        > Adobe Flex was a closed-source and proprietary That confirms it: you aren't old enough to remember Flex. It was open source.
- KuhlMensch 7y ago
  Hooks definitely need to be deeply learned, and has one of the steeper learning curves in React. But at its core, its solving a hard problem (lifecycle side-effects), in a way that is more functional, and produces more maintainable code. Thats a fair trade-off imho. And honestly, once you understand them, the infinite loops are deterministic and understandable. If you want a component-based view library that is written in js, and you are happy to take on the task of assembling a build-system, styling system, routing and of course state-management, I can't see much of an architectural improvement you could make over React. If you want batteries included - go with Vue. If you want the Ruby/spring opinion and batteries included go with Ember. Svelte looks kinda cool. But it seems to sit deep in the browser spec, and in my NAIVE opinion, it doesn't seem hold the component abstraction as something even valuable. It just wants you to script away. Which, is just movement within a trade-off space - if it suits you go for it.
  - jesseskinner 7y ago
    The component abstraction is primary with Svelte. Each file is a component and only one component. This means the only ceremony you need to create a component is to create a new file. It's a perfect solution in my opinion.

zdrummond 7y ago

To be clear, this is Svelte version 3, and the first commit was Nov 15, 2016. So the framework is technically 3+ years old. That said, I don't think boring is about age, but about real-world exposure

iKevinShah 7y ago
To be more in line with the article they're referring, its more about "known unknows" and "unknown unknowns"

Rotareti 7y ago

I went through the svelte examples and I was exited until I reached the If block example: {#if user.loggedIn} <button on:click={toggle}> Log out </button> {/if} To me such template language is a huge step back from JSX. JSX is JavaScript, thus you get the full power of the language (JS/TS) with the full support from your editor (type checking, auto-completion, etc.).

dmitriid 7y ago
I hate template languages myself. But in Svelte’s defence, their template language in version 3 seems to be well-designed and streamlined. It doesn’t have the ad-hoc nature of “oh crap we forgot to add if-then-else” of Angular or “let’s create half-a-dozen incompatible javascript-like DSLs” of Vue.
KuhlMensch 7y ago
Yeah I think I basically agree. Being able to simply write idiomatic javascript to compose elements is just so awesome. Though I would assume Editor support of Svelte can/is being built.

koffiezet 7y ago

My daytime job isn't primarily programming anymore, and frontend development has never even been my job. I used to do embedded and backend development, and am now in more of a ops/architect/automation consultant (freelance). I still need to code on a regular basis, and Go and Python are my go-to languages these days. On a regular basis, I encounter the need for a GUI for some API or backend I write, so I tried to get into a more modern Javascript eco system. I have created websites and even full-on forum software in a long forgotten past, so I have some basic old-school webdev and basic Javascript knowledge (from back when directly manipulating the DOM was still the way to go). So take this as a bit of an outsider look on things, who is confronted with full-time Javascript developers on a daily basis. When I started looking into react, vue, ... it always overwhelmed me. Whatever I started doing, according to someone, it's bad practice and should just do Y instead of X. Nobody seems to agree on best practices, and there seems to be a whole lot of 'magic' going on in all those frameworks, and knowing where to start is an absolute mess. It's confusing as hell. Now I quickly went through the tutorial and examples on the Svelte site and it felt pretty simple, I can reason with how it works behind the scenes, and can read the generated Javascript to verify that that's really what's going on. It makes the whole thing seem more manageable in my head. As far as "the new exciting one" goes - what appeals most to me personally is its simplicity. One of the reasons Go also appealed to me. It was exciting for a while, but ended up being the boring 'it just works' solution which completely replaced C and C++ in my life (that's not a jab at these languages, they have their uses, I just don't need them anymore)

jesseskinner 7y ago
I've been doing web development professionally for two decades but I feel exactly the same way. It couldn't be any simpler!