7 ms·

And what will your brain perceive, how would you feel? Does "en eternity in hell" sound exciting? Because it might be a very real possibility.

libertine 7y ago
This is such a weird scenario it's hard to imagine how traumatic this would be, and if it would ever be possible to regain conscience that thing would most likely be just something else other than human. According to António Damásio our conscience and memories are part of our body - the whole of it. We aren't brains mounted on a bio-mechanical motion, sensory and life support systems. People who lose a limb, or those who have spinal injuries go through such traumatic experiences, I can't imagine a glimpse of consciousness of a head..
- NotSammyHagar 7y ago
  It's traumatic of course to have that happen but you still remember your life, you don't forget about first grade or something. Our mental state is affected by the health state of our bodies. I just read the wikipedia bio of Damasio, I see he's a real neuroscientist (I am not). But how can it be that our memories are not only in our brain?
Retra 7y ago
Well, it sounds more interesting and useful than death, which is the default alternative.
- thestartup 7y ago
  How would a technological brain-in-a-vat hell of unending torture be "more interesting" and "useful" than death?
  - Retra 7y ago
    How can 0.0001 be greater than 0? Death is very uninteresting and useless, and most importantly, offers almost no possibility of being reversed.
    - d1zzy 7y ago
      There seems to be at least one positive to death: the end of the struggle. If you don't exist you don't need to worry, to suffer, to care. There's a certain type of comfort in knowing that at the end of it all, it's really not that important. Immortality seems to me as too many paths to a hellish existence, especially since we aren't adapted to such an existence, psychologically or physically. This veers into the realm of philosophy but potentially almost everything we enjoy about life may be because of our mortality, even the feeling of happiness itself may be derived from knowing that tomorrow we may be dead. An immortal existence seems so different from the human experience that I can't say that it has a high chance of being a positive thing.
      - Retra 7y ago
        You can consider that a positive, but it is also an inevitability. Nobody is talking about immortality here. But you also wouldn't be saying the end of all life would be positive (which you could, for exactly the same reasons) and that still wouldn't mean you shouldn't delay it for as long as possible. >almost everything we enjoy about life may be because of our mortality You don't know that you're mortal until you die. It makes no difference here, because even if this were true, you are already assuming you are mortal regardless of the facts, and you will continue to do so. Being immortal doesn't imply you've also reached some state of deep enlightenment about it. Besides, you can invert this just as well: everything we enjoy about life may be dependent upon the belief that we're not going to die soon.
- bdcravens 7y ago
  Isn't there a real possibility that being removed from everything that allows us to perceive reality, psychological trauma could result?
  - djsumdog 7y ago
    ..and with no ability to communicate with that brain in a jar, we'd have no idea what's going on inside of it. We could be putting it in hell and never know. It could be like the movie Waking Life, eternal dreaming without ever being able to wake up. The title of the game/short novel comes to mind: "I Have No Mouth Yet I Must Scream."
    - ThrowawayR2 7y ago
      > ..and with no ability to communicate with that brain in a jar, we'd have no idea what's going on inside of it. We already know what happens to prisoners placed in solitary confinement; the effects on mental health are quite damaging over the long term. There have also been studies on partial sensory deprivation [0] and impairment of cognitive abilities and hallucinations began occurring within days. I can't find the appropriate references at the moment but total sensory deprivation, which is closest to the brain-in-a-jar scenario, is even worse than that IIRC. [0] https://www.motherjones.com/politics/2012/10/donald-o-hebb-effects-extreme-isolation/ https://www.motherjones.com/politics/2012/10/donald-o-hebb-e... > The title of the game/short novel comes to mind: "I Have No Mouth Yet I Must Scream." Zelazny's "Go Starless in the Night" would be more appropriate and perhaps only slightly less horrifying.
      - Retra 7y ago
        You're still assuming it's not like sleep, and that you wouldn't be floating in a vat of chemicals/equipment that had an impact on your mental state. And you still shouldn't assume that death is preferable to solitary confinement or sensory deprivation.
        ThrowawayR2 7y ago
gnode 7y ago
I'd speculate that in an isolated brain dreaming would still be possible. Possibly, without external stimulation it would not be possible to be awake. That said, there are emerging technologies which would compliment brain preservation, such as the brain-computer interface. BCI therapies have already been effective in giving blind people sight via invasive electrodes (e.g. the work of William Dobelle). Output has also been demonstrated using BCIs. Such a brain could interact with the world through a robotic surrogate, or have an entirely virtual interaction. Arguably, the brain in a tank may have access to a richer experience than the natural body, with synthetic sensory and motor capabilities.
ada1981 7y ago
I imagine so. No connection to your heart or body? It would be horrible to not be connected to your heart.
- gambiting 7y ago
  I mean, you do know that there are people out there with no hearts, connected permanently to an external blood pump?
JoeAltmaier 7y ago
I'd imaging that phantom body signals could be a real issue. Pain, burning, numbness, motion, visual hallucinations. It could really be hell.
- emilfihlman 7y ago
  And yet, it would be _my_ hell. And I would be _alive_ and not dead.
  - virgilp 7y ago
    In something that could be worse than solitary confinement. I remind you, that is the place used to punish people who were already in jail. Nobody is known to resist more than a few days there, yet you want an entire eternity. Far from me to deny you any option... I'm just saying it's far too risky for myself.

libertine 7y ago

This is such a weird scenario it's hard to imagine how traumatic this would be, and if it would ever be possible to regain conscience that thing would most likely be just something else other than human. According to António Damásio our conscience and memories are part of our body - the whole of it. We aren't brains mounted on a bio-mechanical motion, sensory and life support systems. People who lose a limb, or those who have spinal injuries go through such traumatic experiences, I can't imagine a glimpse of consciousness of a head..

NotSammyHagar 7y ago
It's traumatic of course to have that happen but you still remember your life, you don't forget about first grade or something. Our mental state is affected by the health state of our bodies. I just read the wikipedia bio of Damasio, I see he's a real neuroscientist (I am not). But how can it be that our memories are not only in our brain?

Retra 7y ago

Well, it sounds more interesting and useful than death, which is the default alternative.

thestartup 7y ago
How would a technological brain-in-a-vat hell of unending torture be "more interesting" and "useful" than death?
- Retra 7y ago
  How can 0.0001 be greater than 0? Death is very uninteresting and useless, and most importantly, offers almost no possibility of being reversed.
  - d1zzy 7y ago
    There seems to be at least one positive to death: the end of the struggle. If you don't exist you don't need to worry, to suffer, to care. There's a certain type of comfort in knowing that at the end of it all, it's really not that important. Immortality seems to me as too many paths to a hellish existence, especially since we aren't adapted to such an existence, psychologically or physically. This veers into the realm of philosophy but potentially almost everything we enjoy about life may be because of our mortality, even the feeling of happiness itself may be derived from knowing that tomorrow we may be dead. An immortal existence seems so different from the human experience that I can't say that it has a high chance of being a positive thing.
    - Retra 7y ago
      You can consider that a positive, but it is also an inevitability. Nobody is talking about immortality here. But you also wouldn't be saying the end of all life would be positive (which you could, for exactly the same reasons) and that still wouldn't mean you shouldn't delay it for as long as possible. >almost everything we enjoy about life may be because of our mortality You don't know that you're mortal until you die. It makes no difference here, because even if this were true, you are already assuming you are mortal regardless of the facts, and you will continue to do so. Being immortal doesn't imply you've also reached some state of deep enlightenment about it. Besides, you can invert this just as well: everything we enjoy about life may be dependent upon the belief that we're not going to die soon.
bdcravens 7y ago
Isn't there a real possibility that being removed from everything that allows us to perceive reality, psychological trauma could result?
- djsumdog 7y ago
  ..and with no ability to communicate with that brain in a jar, we'd have no idea what's going on inside of it. We could be putting it in hell and never know. It could be like the movie Waking Life, eternal dreaming without ever being able to wake up. The title of the game/short novel comes to mind: "I Have No Mouth Yet I Must Scream."
  - ThrowawayR2 7y ago
    > ..and with no ability to communicate with that brain in a jar, we'd have no idea what's going on inside of it. We already know what happens to prisoners placed in solitary confinement; the effects on mental health are quite damaging over the long term. There have also been studies on partial sensory deprivation [0] and impairment of cognitive abilities and hallucinations began occurring within days. I can't find the appropriate references at the moment but total sensory deprivation, which is closest to the brain-in-a-jar scenario, is even worse than that IIRC. [0] https://www.motherjones.com/politics/2012/10/donald-o-hebb-effects-extreme-isolation/ https://www.motherjones.com/politics/2012/10/donald-o-hebb-e... > The title of the game/short novel comes to mind: "I Have No Mouth Yet I Must Scream." Zelazny's "Go Starless in the Night" would be more appropriate and perhaps only slightly less horrifying.
    - Retra 7y ago
      You're still assuming it's not like sleep, and that you wouldn't be floating in a vat of chemicals/equipment that had an impact on your mental state. And you still shouldn't assume that death is preferable to solitary confinement or sensory deprivation.
      - ThrowawayR2 7y ago

gnode 7y ago

I'd speculate that in an isolated brain dreaming would still be possible. Possibly, without external stimulation it would not be possible to be awake. That said, there are emerging technologies which would compliment brain preservation, such as the brain-computer interface. BCI therapies have already been effective in giving blind people sight via invasive electrodes (e.g. the work of William Dobelle). Output has also been demonstrated using BCIs. Such a brain could interact with the world through a robotic surrogate, or have an entirely virtual interaction. Arguably, the brain in a tank may have access to a richer experience than the natural body, with synthetic sensory and motor capabilities.

ada1981 7y ago

I imagine so. No connection to your heart or body? It would be horrible to not be connected to your heart.

gambiting 7y ago
I mean, you do know that there are people out there with no hearts, connected permanently to an external blood pump?

JoeAltmaier 7y ago

I'd imaging that phantom body signals could be a real issue. Pain, burning, numbness, motion, visual hallucinations. It could really be hell.

emilfihlman 7y ago
And yet, it would be _my_ hell. And I would be _alive_ and not dead.
- virgilp 7y ago
  In something that could be worse than solitary confinement. I remind you, that is the place used to punish people who were already in jail. Nobody is known to resist more than a few days there, yet you want an entire eternity. Far from me to deny you any option... I'm just saying it's far too risky for myself.