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>"China is using technology for the perfection of dictatorship." -Pete Buttigieg, 2020 US presidential candidate PRC may be blazing the trail, but as the tech

by mLuby 7y ago

>"China is using technology for the perfection of dictatorship." -Pete Buttigieg, 2020 US presidential candidate PRC may be blazing the trail, but as the tech becomes proved and available, I won't be surprised to see creeping adoption in more "free" countries (especially following crises).

Ididntdothis 7y ago
Exactly. People are already used to much more surveillance than they used and this trend just keeps going. Sometimes it's China taking the lead, sometimes the US, sometimes other countries. But they all look at each other and slowly adopt what the other country is doing. I am pretty sure the next generation will never see anything other than complete surveillance by countries or corporations. And for them it will seem normal.
- SubiculumCode 7y ago
  If your whole argument is based on fatalism, you might as well say so....because right now you assume the conclusion.
  - mLuby 7y ago
    It doesn't look like fatalism to me; the argument is based on the bandwagon effect and how dramatic outcomes can be arrived at through incremental changes.
    - Ididntdothis 7y ago
      It's the slow erosion of values. I remember a time when people would "never do online banking", now pretty much everybody does it. Some years ago nobody would have thought it possible that the border agent may ask for social media accounts or decrypt your phone. Now they do it. It's a very slow progression that may take decades but it's happening everywhere.
- borvel 7y ago
  It's already "normal". People don't even realize there are cameras watching them everywhere, because they spend every moment trapped in their smartphone obsession while ignoring whatever goes on around them. It's tragic. Of course, the phone is the absolute worst offender in terms of state and corporate espionage (we don't even need microchips) but people choose to ignore the implications because they can play Flappy Bird and not have to make eye contact with people. There is already complete surveillance: 5G is its latest incarnation. Everything will be known and nothing will be safe. This is the "new age".
- godelski 7y ago
  To be honest most people already see surveillance capitalism as normal. Weirds me out for one.
orthecreedence 7y ago
In China, surveillance is nationalized. In the US, it's nationalized (NSA) and privatized (Facebook). The tech already exists and people are using it willingly.
- educationdata 7y ago
  It's a bs comparison. The Chinese government surveillance is purely for dictatorship, and they do put political opponents and human rights lawyers in jail at a massive scale. The NSA surveillance is mostly for legitimate security reasons and is under restrict scrutiny.
  - rolltiide 7y ago
    LOL China does it to protect their people from people that want to undermine and dismantle the party This is true! This is exactly what we want to happen! These are security reasons from their perspective Can you see how that is not so different? In the US we are as oblivious to the exact nature and motives of security threats too, and tolerate our border and surveillance agencies to preempt an unspecified threat. The mere existence of scrutiny doesnt make the systems that different.
    - d1zzy 7y ago
      I disagree that it's similar. It's one thing to perform surveillance on individuals where you have strong reasons to suspect they will engage in terrorist acts (meaning making plans to kill lots of people) and quite another to do so because someone disagrees with you being in power. I'm sure there's an overlap of people who do both but that's not the group I'm talking about and I'm also sure NSA/US authorities abuse their powers (hence why we constantly have to fight against power/survaillence creep) to monitor people that are simply political enemies but that doesn't negate the difference between the 2 situations (ie just because the US may engage in that type of behavior doesn't excuse the behavior China engages in). I grew up in an Eastern European communist dictatorship and I know what it means to be afraid to talk against the party and its leader. I'm now an immigrant to the US (so arguably no as many rights as a citizen) and in no way is there the same type of censorship and oppression. Put it another way, where do you draw the line in terms of how the government is allowed to behave in regards to its citizens since you can pretty much excuse any abusive behavior under the reasoning of "security reasons"?

by mLuby 7y ago

Ididntdothis 7y ago

Exactly. People are already used to much more surveillance than they used and this trend just keeps going. Sometimes it's China taking the lead, sometimes the US, sometimes other countries. But they all look at each other and slowly adopt what the other country is doing. I am pretty sure the next generation will never see anything other than complete surveillance by countries or corporations. And for them it will seem normal.

SubiculumCode 7y ago
If your whole argument is based on fatalism, you might as well say so....because right now you assume the conclusion.
- mLuby 7y ago
  It doesn't look like fatalism to me; the argument is based on the bandwagon effect and how dramatic outcomes can be arrived at through incremental changes.
  - Ididntdothis 7y ago
    It's the slow erosion of values. I remember a time when people would "never do online banking", now pretty much everybody does it. Some years ago nobody would have thought it possible that the border agent may ask for social media accounts or decrypt your phone. Now they do it. It's a very slow progression that may take decades but it's happening everywhere.
borvel 7y ago
It's already "normal". People don't even realize there are cameras watching them everywhere, because they spend every moment trapped in their smartphone obsession while ignoring whatever goes on around them. It's tragic. Of course, the phone is the absolute worst offender in terms of state and corporate espionage (we don't even need microchips) but people choose to ignore the implications because they can play Flappy Bird and not have to make eye contact with people. There is already complete surveillance: 5G is its latest incarnation. Everything will be known and nothing will be safe. This is the "new age".
godelski 7y ago
To be honest most people already see surveillance capitalism as normal. Weirds me out for one.

orthecreedence 7y ago

In China, surveillance is nationalized. In the US, it's nationalized (NSA) and privatized (Facebook). The tech already exists and people are using it willingly.

educationdata 7y ago
It's a bs comparison. The Chinese government surveillance is purely for dictatorship, and they do put political opponents and human rights lawyers in jail at a massive scale. The NSA surveillance is mostly for legitimate security reasons and is under restrict scrutiny.
- rolltiide 7y ago
  LOL China does it to protect their people from people that want to undermine and dismantle the party This is true! This is exactly what we want to happen! These are security reasons from their perspective Can you see how that is not so different? In the US we are as oblivious to the exact nature and motives of security threats too, and tolerate our border and surveillance agencies to preempt an unspecified threat. The mere existence of scrutiny doesnt make the systems that different.
  - d1zzy 7y ago
    I disagree that it's similar. It's one thing to perform surveillance on individuals where you have strong reasons to suspect they will engage in terrorist acts (meaning making plans to kill lots of people) and quite another to do so because someone disagrees with you being in power. I'm sure there's an overlap of people who do both but that's not the group I'm talking about and I'm also sure NSA/US authorities abuse their powers (hence why we constantly have to fight against power/survaillence creep) to monitor people that are simply political enemies but that doesn't negate the difference between the 2 situations (ie just because the US may engage in that type of behavior doesn't excuse the behavior China engages in). I grew up in an Eastern European communist dictatorship and I know what it means to be afraid to talk against the party and its leader. I'm now an immigrant to the US (so arguably no as many rights as a citizen) and in no way is there the same type of censorship and oppression. Put it another way, where do you draw the line in terms of how the government is allowed to behave in regards to its citizens since you can pretty much excuse any abusive behavior under the reasoning of "security reasons"?