5 ms·

We should probably settle. Other platforms afford a new UI framework maybe once a decade. The Web Frontend, already running on top of an apparently inadequate

We should probably settle. Other platforms afford a new UI framework maybe once a decade. The Web Frontend, already running on top of an apparently inadequate framework called "HTML5", somehow needs to be reinvented every year and it's a huge cost factor.

wirahx 7y ago
and this is exactly why I still drive a Ford Model-T.
- tashoecraft 7y ago
  comes in black, why would any one need another color. Glad we all settled on black being the only color for cars.
  - aitchnyu 7y ago
    Python has a code formatter named Black after Ford's quote and is almost uncustomisable. https://github.com/python/black https://github.com/python/black
manigandham 7y ago
You don't have to use any of it. This website you're reading is just HTML from a server.
- gridlockd 7y ago
  If everyone's busy setting little fires, then "You don't have to join in" is not a very good defense.
  - manigandham 7y ago
    How does this compare to a fire? It's a constructive new project. Use it if you want, learn from it if you like, or ignore it if you don't care. You seem to have an axe to grind against JS.
    - gridlockd 7y ago
      You have misunderstood the point. I'm not saying "stop creating new frameworks". Create anything you want, I don't care. When I am talking about "settling down", I'm talking about the people that implement real systems for businesses to use. Those people have to make decisions on the technology they're pushing. If those people can't settle on a stack and keep changing their minds on how to implement a user interface, somebody has to pay for that. This is akin to a "little fire" in a very real sense - it's burning money that could be used otherwise. So telling me that "I don't have to use it" is besides the point. I don't run the whole show by myself. Developers need to be reasonably comfortable with their stack. If you are using <outdated stack X> but the whole industry is shifting towards <shiny new stack Y>, people will just quit on you.
      - manigandham 7y ago
        Businesses pay to solve business problems, not change frameworks. The majority of software dev requires long-term decision making, commitment and support. Developers who can't solve problems because they're too busy chasing the latest framework aren't going to be getting much work. People will experiment, and it's good for the industry to have new innovation, but there's really not that much danger of constantly shifting tech stacks unless your team and leadership don't know what they're doing - and if that's the case, you have bigger problems then the tech stack.
        gridlockd 7y ago
        > Developers who can't solve problems because they're too busy chasing the latest framework aren't going to be getting much work. That's not really how hiring works. Nobody is going to put "I failed to get anything done because we re-wrote everything in Svelte" on their resume. > People will experiment, and it's good for the industry to have new innovation, but there's really not that much danger of constantly shifting tech stacks unless your team and leadership don't know what they're doing - and if that's the case, you have bigger problems then the tech stack. If you're switching a tech stack, by definition, you don't really know what you're doing. You're treading in unknown territory. You're spending real money for the promise of hopefully increasing productivity in the future. You are speculating. I'm not saying this is a risk you should never take, there's a downside to never switching stacks too. The idea that you just need the right team and everything will be fine is a fantasy.
tashoecraft 7y ago
No it's not, no one is rewritting their front ends every year to change frameworks. React was released 6 years ago, Angular fully released about 3 years ago. Just because some person decided to build something that solved their problem and may help others doesn't mean you need to adopt it and change everything. This argument that everyone needs to slow down because some people don't like hearing about change is ridiculous. No other platform is as widespread and accessible as the web. There's more developers able to target sites that fit a massive range of uses, more than any other platform ever. So ofcourse there are going to be different needs for different use cases.
- gridlockd 7y ago
  > No it's not, no one is rewritting their front ends every year to change frameworks. Maybe not quite every year, but the dominant frameworks have changed a lot in the past decade and if you're still running some of the "next big things" of yesteryear the developer pressure to switch is strong. The churn is real. > React was released 6 years ago, Angular fully released about 3 years ago. In my opinion, React being quite stable over that timeframe is a big factor in it becoming the dominant player. Angular being scrapped and rewritten is exactly what I'm talking about, lots of development effort wasted there. > This argument that everyone needs to slow down because some people don't like hearing about change is ridiculous. If the kids want to keep playing with the latest toys, that's fine. Just don't expect the people paying the bills to buy into them.

wirahx 7y ago

and this is exactly why I still drive a Ford Model-T.

tashoecraft 7y ago
comes in black, why would any one need another color. Glad we all settled on black being the only color for cars.
- aitchnyu 7y ago
  Python has a code formatter named Black after Ford's quote and is almost uncustomisable. https://github.com/python/black https://github.com/python/black

manigandham 7y ago

You don't have to use any of it. This website you're reading is just HTML from a server.

gridlockd 7y ago
If everyone's busy setting little fires, then "You don't have to join in" is not a very good defense.
- manigandham 7y ago
  How does this compare to a fire? It's a constructive new project. Use it if you want, learn from it if you like, or ignore it if you don't care. You seem to have an axe to grind against JS.
  - gridlockd 7y ago
    You have misunderstood the point. I'm not saying "stop creating new frameworks". Create anything you want, I don't care. When I am talking about "settling down", I'm talking about the people that implement real systems for businesses to use. Those people have to make decisions on the technology they're pushing. If those people can't settle on a stack and keep changing their minds on how to implement a user interface, somebody has to pay for that. This is akin to a "little fire" in a very real sense - it's burning money that could be used otherwise. So telling me that "I don't have to use it" is besides the point. I don't run the whole show by myself. Developers need to be reasonably comfortable with their stack. If you are using <outdated stack X> but the whole industry is shifting towards <shiny new stack Y>, people will just quit on you.
    - manigandham 7y ago
      Businesses pay to solve business problems, not change frameworks. The majority of software dev requires long-term decision making, commitment and support. Developers who can't solve problems because they're too busy chasing the latest framework aren't going to be getting much work. People will experiment, and it's good for the industry to have new innovation, but there's really not that much danger of constantly shifting tech stacks unless your team and leadership don't know what they're doing - and if that's the case, you have bigger problems then the tech stack.
      - gridlockd 7y ago
        > Developers who can't solve problems because they're too busy chasing the latest framework aren't going to be getting much work. That's not really how hiring works. Nobody is going to put "I failed to get anything done because we re-wrote everything in Svelte" on their resume. > People will experiment, and it's good for the industry to have new innovation, but there's really not that much danger of constantly shifting tech stacks unless your team and leadership don't know what they're doing - and if that's the case, you have bigger problems then the tech stack. If you're switching a tech stack, by definition, you don't really know what you're doing. You're treading in unknown territory. You're spending real money for the promise of hopefully increasing productivity in the future. You are speculating. I'm not saying this is a risk you should never take, there's a downside to never switching stacks too. The idea that you just need the right team and everything will be fine is a fantasy.

tashoecraft 7y ago

No it's not, no one is rewritting their front ends every year to change frameworks. React was released 6 years ago, Angular fully released about 3 years ago. Just because some person decided to build something that solved their problem and may help others doesn't mean you need to adopt it and change everything. This argument that everyone needs to slow down because some people don't like hearing about change is ridiculous. No other platform is as widespread and accessible as the web. There's more developers able to target sites that fit a massive range of uses, more than any other platform ever. So ofcourse there are going to be different needs for different use cases.

gridlockd 7y ago
> No it's not, no one is rewritting their front ends every year to change frameworks. Maybe not quite every year, but the dominant frameworks have changed a lot in the past decade and if you're still running some of the "next big things" of yesteryear the developer pressure to switch is strong. The churn is real. > React was released 6 years ago, Angular fully released about 3 years ago. In my opinion, React being quite stable over that timeframe is a big factor in it becoming the dominant player. Angular being scrapped and rewritten is exactly what I'm talking about, lots of development effort wasted there. > This argument that everyone needs to slow down because some people don't like hearing about change is ridiculous. If the kids want to keep playing with the latest toys, that's fine. Just don't expect the people paying the bills to buy into them.