4 ms·

Amazingly, no mention of the Intercept revelations that Bolsonaro won because of judicial corruption by the judge Sergio Moro, who eliminated Lula from the elec

Amazingly, no mention of the Intercept revelations that Bolsonaro won because of judicial corruption by the judge Sergio Moro, who eliminated Lula from the election, and much more as part of his Lavo Jato investigation. I.e., this was essentially a coup. Again. The DOJ also had their hand all over Lavo Jato. Guess that Pink Tide had to be turned. https://theintercept.com/2019/06/17/brazil-sergio-moro-lula-operation-car-wash/ https://theintercept.com/2019/06/17/brazil-sergio-moro-lula-... https://fair.org/home/these-revelations-really-show-the-election-was-fraudulent/ https://fair.org/home/these-revelations-really-show-the-elec...

andrenth 7y ago
Are you really that naive, or actually ill-intentioned? I’ll assume the former. If you actually read these leaks, you’ll see there’s absolutely nothing that even indicates any kind of corruption on the part of Moro or any of the attorneys. What you have is an unverified leak by a political activist that likes to pretend he’s a journalist, who’s married to a politician from the far left whose party would love to bring down a legally elected government. Think about it. Who are the parties interested in voiding the Car Wash operation? This is the largest anti-corruption operation in the world. Who benefits from taking it down? There is no shortage of proof against Lula, Cunha, Cabral and all the other politicians in jail. Do you want them free? Why? Please don’t spread misinformation here, because unaware people might buy it due to not understanding the situation. Believing in a conspiracy against Lula is akin to being a flat-earther. Not even he believes in that crap.
- andrenth 7y ago
  The downvoters don’t like to see it mentioned that Glen Greenwald is a liar. The evidence is clear though. In this specific case, he has produced fake evidence, by implicating in his “leak” the names of people who weren’t event involved in the Car Wash operator, not to mention faking timestamps to try to prove something that never happened. The real coup attempt here is being done by the method of greenwalding [1]. [1] https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=greenwalding https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=greenwalding
  - dang 7y ago
    Please do not do political flamewar on HN. It's not what this site is for. Personal attacks, which you did in the parent comment, will particularly get you banned here. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html Edit: we've had to warn you about this repeatedly, yet you've continued to break the site guidelines. That eventually leads to getting banned on HN. I don't want to ban you, because you've posted good comments as well, so would you please fix this?
    - andrenth 7y ago
      Sorry, it’s just that the original comment is so completely nonfactual that I cannot attribute it to anything other than naïveté or ill motives. But I should have articulated that in different words. I do think that the original post should also be warned against political flamewars, because if a post like that goes unreplied, someone might think it’s true without questioning it.
      - dang 7y ago
        > I cannot attribute it to anything other than naïveté or ill motives You've articulated this perception nicely. We all feel it, but it's a cognitive bias that we project onto others. I've been trying to convince HN users of this for years: https://hn.algolia.com/?sort=byDate&dateRange=all&type=comment&storyText=false&prefix=true&page=0&query=by:dang%20opposing%20view https://hn.algolia.com/?sort=byDate&dateRange=all&type=comme... I did reply to other comments in this thread, but in general it's too high a bar to expect mods to reply equally to all violations, for the same reasons that cops can't give speeding tickets to all speeders: they don't see all of them, and issuing a ticket takes a lot of time.
scythe 7y ago
Do you know why reputable news organizations were unimpressed by those "revelations"? Because they mostly show prosecutors being angry on IRC. What it proves is that the prosecutors hated the Workers' Party, which is understandable, given that they had spent the last several years dealing with massive corruption in the Workers' Party. I would classify that emotional reaction as normal. Their comments about the election are somewhat inappropriate, but there is no indication of any ill intent. The collaboration of the prosecutors with Moro, however minor, is more serious. That doesn't mean the charges were faked -- the evidence is publicly available and has been considered by many independent parties. Nobody qualified was arguing that this was a sham before June. However, judicial procedure exists for a reason. If back-channel discussions could have influenced Moro's decision, then it could be reversed even if the evidence is nonetheless sufficient to prove Lula's guilt. (I am not a lawyer.) It's not exactly out of the ordinary for prosecutors to be friendly with judges, who are themselves often former prosecutors, and it isn't evidence of any foreign influence. What they did do w.r.t. the election was say they wished they could file an injunction to prevent Lula from speaking publicly, but they were legally barred from doing so. Instead, the Bolsonaro campaign filed the motion and it was granted. It's unclear how much this would have influenced the election, which Bolsonaro won by just over 10%. That's a landslide in the United States. Furthermore, the American role in Lava Jato was never secret nor nefarious, and was well-known to independent institutions, e.g.: https://www.law.columbia.edu/public-integrity/conferences-and-events/Brazil-Justice https://www.law.columbia.edu/public-integrity/conferences-an... https://www.bakerinstitute.org/media/files/files/b49a8c69/lagunes-lavajato-backgrounder.pdf https://www.bakerinstitute.org/media/files/files/b49a8c69/la... Furthermore, this kind of paranoid ranting about "lawfare" is exactly what Brazil does not need right now: https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2019/06/12/brazils-democracy-suffers-another-blow-with-operation-car-wash-leaks/?utm_term=.31d691cfecb9 https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2019/06/12/brazils-d... >Widespread distrust of institutions will feed the “salvationist” narrative taking hold in Brazilian politics. Bolsonaro is a direct product of that — and he won before these recent revelations about Lava Jato. Liberal and conservative institutions alike in the West mourned the election of Bolsonaro. The West is not always the most honest actor but it is difficult to manage how it could manage to be so uniformly opposed to something in public and favor it in private. Right-wing economists in Brazil who supported his campaign have expressed regret. https://reason.com/2019/06/01/deal-with-the-devil/ https://reason.com/2019/06/01/deal-with-the-devil/ >Some of Ling's closest associates had pleaded with him not to sit down with Bolsonaro, who was infamous for public comments praising torture and dictatorship and denigrating women and minorities. Just associating with him, they feared, would tarnish Brazil's libertarian movement, which was drawing new followers at an astounding pace and winning mainstream recognition. This isn't an organized coup. It's a product of various special interests poking and prodding from within and without on a democracy, like every other country but with a lot of inequality and a culture of doing whatever it takes to get ahead. Painting a picture that colors in the lines drawn for you by Russian propagandists isn't going to clarify anything. It might make you feel like a hero, of course, but you won't be one.
dang 7y ago
Please don't take HN threads into partisan flamewar. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

andrenth 7y ago

Are you really that naive, or actually ill-intentioned? I’ll assume the former. If you actually read these leaks, you’ll see there’s absolutely nothing that even indicates any kind of corruption on the part of Moro or any of the attorneys. What you have is an unverified leak by a political activist that likes to pretend he’s a journalist, who’s married to a politician from the far left whose party would love to bring down a legally elected government. Think about it. Who are the parties interested in voiding the Car Wash operation? This is the largest anti-corruption operation in the world. Who benefits from taking it down? There is no shortage of proof against Lula, Cunha, Cabral and all the other politicians in jail. Do you want them free? Why? Please don’t spread misinformation here, because unaware people might buy it due to not understanding the situation. Believing in a conspiracy against Lula is akin to being a flat-earther. Not even he believes in that crap.

andrenth 7y ago
The downvoters don’t like to see it mentioned that Glen Greenwald is a liar. The evidence is clear though. In this specific case, he has produced fake evidence, by implicating in his “leak” the names of people who weren’t event involved in the Car Wash operator, not to mention faking timestamps to try to prove something that never happened. The real coup attempt here is being done by the method of greenwalding [1]. [1] https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=greenwalding https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=greenwalding
- dang 7y ago
  Please do not do political flamewar on HN. It's not what this site is for. Personal attacks, which you did in the parent comment, will particularly get you banned here. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html Edit: we've had to warn you about this repeatedly, yet you've continued to break the site guidelines. That eventually leads to getting banned on HN. I don't want to ban you, because you've posted good comments as well, so would you please fix this?
  - andrenth 7y ago
    Sorry, it’s just that the original comment is so completely nonfactual that I cannot attribute it to anything other than naïveté or ill motives. But I should have articulated that in different words. I do think that the original post should also be warned against political flamewars, because if a post like that goes unreplied, someone might think it’s true without questioning it.
    - dang 7y ago
      > I cannot attribute it to anything other than naïveté or ill motives You've articulated this perception nicely. We all feel it, but it's a cognitive bias that we project onto others. I've been trying to convince HN users of this for years: https://hn.algolia.com/?sort=byDate&dateRange=all&type=comment&storyText=false&prefix=true&page=0&query=by:dang%20opposing%20view https://hn.algolia.com/?sort=byDate&dateRange=all&type=comme... I did reply to other comments in this thread, but in general it's too high a bar to expect mods to reply equally to all violations, for the same reasons that cops can't give speeding tickets to all speeders: they don't see all of them, and issuing a ticket takes a lot of time.

scythe 7y ago

Do you know why reputable news organizations were unimpressed by those "revelations"? Because they mostly show prosecutors being angry on IRC. What it proves is that the prosecutors hated the Workers' Party, which is understandable, given that they had spent the last several years dealing with massive corruption in the Workers' Party. I would classify that emotional reaction as normal. Their comments about the election are somewhat inappropriate, but there is no indication of any ill intent. The collaboration of the prosecutors with Moro, however minor, is more serious. That doesn't mean the charges were faked -- the evidence is publicly available and has been considered by many independent parties. Nobody qualified was arguing that this was a sham before June. However, judicial procedure exists for a reason. If back-channel discussions could have influenced Moro's decision, then it could be reversed even if the evidence is nonetheless sufficient to prove Lula's guilt. (I am not a lawyer.) It's not exactly out of the ordinary for prosecutors to be friendly with judges, who are themselves often former prosecutors, and it isn't evidence of any foreign influence. What they did do w.r.t. the election was say they wished they could file an injunction to prevent Lula from speaking publicly, but they were legally barred from doing so. Instead, the Bolsonaro campaign filed the motion and it was granted. It's unclear how much this would have influenced the election, which Bolsonaro won by just over 10%. That's a landslide in the United States. Furthermore, the American role in Lava Jato was never secret nor nefarious, and was well-known to independent institutions, e.g.: https://www.law.columbia.edu/public-integrity/conferences-and-events/Brazil-Justice https://www.law.columbia.edu/public-integrity/conferences-an... https://www.bakerinstitute.org/media/files/files/b49a8c69/lagunes-lavajato-backgrounder.pdf https://www.bakerinstitute.org/media/files/files/b49a8c69/la... Furthermore, this kind of paranoid ranting about "lawfare" is exactly what Brazil does not need right now: https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2019/06/12/brazils-democracy-suffers-another-blow-with-operation-car-wash-leaks/?utm_term=.31d691cfecb9 https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2019/06/12/brazils-d... >Widespread distrust of institutions will feed the “salvationist” narrative taking hold in Brazilian politics. Bolsonaro is a direct product of that — and he won before these recent revelations about Lava Jato. Liberal and conservative institutions alike in the West mourned the election of Bolsonaro. The West is not always the most honest actor but it is difficult to manage how it could manage to be so uniformly opposed to something in public and favor it in private. Right-wing economists in Brazil who supported his campaign have expressed regret. https://reason.com/2019/06/01/deal-with-the-devil/ https://reason.com/2019/06/01/deal-with-the-devil/ >Some of Ling's closest associates had pleaded with him not to sit down with Bolsonaro, who was infamous for public comments praising torture and dictatorship and denigrating women and minorities. Just associating with him, they feared, would tarnish Brazil's libertarian movement, which was drawing new followers at an astounding pace and winning mainstream recognition. This isn't an organized coup. It's a product of various special interests poking and prodding from within and without on a democracy, like every other country but with a lot of inequality and a culture of doing whatever it takes to get ahead. Painting a picture that colors in the lines drawn for you by Russian propagandists isn't going to clarify anything. It might make you feel like a hero, of course, but you won't be one.

dang 7y ago

Please don't take HN threads into partisan flamewar. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html