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Thesis: Every time an organization claims to be flat and non-hierarchical, it is actually hierarchical, but the chain of command is invisible and based on the p

Thesis: Every time an organization claims to be flat and non-hierarchical, it is actually hierarchical, but the chain of command is invisible and based on the personal charisma of particular people, or sometimes based on their ability to bully and manipulate others. An organization without a formal structure will have an informal structure made up of various cliques Here's the problem with command based on charisma, formidable personalities, and cliques: Such power is arbitrary. Operating without limitations, such invisible chains of command can often operate through emotionally abusive practices like expulsion and hazing and can subject people to accusation without trial and without the opportunity to face accusers. People need structure and the rule of law. If such structures are based on sound humanitarian principles and are administered fairly, they can act to make groups of people behave in a more principled and egalitarian fashion. If applied correctly, these structures can coexist with and even compliment more communal and non-hierarchical forms of organization.

mcguire 7y ago
"Command based on charisma, formidable personalities, and cliques" describes every structured, hierarchical business I've ever worked for. If there's one that's not, I've never even heard of it.
- stcredzero 7y ago
  As I note above, of course! All human groups have a hierarchical side and a communal side. That's simply the human condition.
  - lovemenot 7y ago
    Responding in such a way as to make this seem like a private conversation which happens to be available publicly, is perhaps another example of hidden power relations, to which we've become all too familiar. I don't know how to say this in the right way. It's never really about you - no matter how good it might feel. Not really.
dragonwriter 7y ago
> Every time an organization claims to be flat and non-hierarchical, it is actually hierarchical, but the chain of command is invisible and based on the personal charisma of particular people, or sometimes based on their ability to bully and manipulate others. An organization without a formal structure will have an informal structure made up of various cliques This is true, but what is less frequently mentioned is that the same thing is invariably also true of organizations with formal heirarchies, and the actual structure based on personal charisma, manipulation, and bullying will often be significantly different than the formal heirarchy (which influences the actual heirarchy because position in the for heirarchy—especially when people believe in it—influences the ability to manipulate and bully, but never fully determines the actual heirarchy.)
- stcredzero 7y ago
  This is true, but what is less frequently mentioned is that the same thing is invariably also true of organizations with formal hierarchies Of course. All human groups have a hierarchical side and a communal side. That's simply the human condition. Sometimes it even seems like all the "magic" is on the communal side. This is true, but what is less frequently mentioned is that the same thing is invariably also true of organizations with formal heirarchies, and the actual structure based on personal charisma, manipulation, and bullying will often be significantly different than the formal heirarchy There's an old story about the AT&T takeover of NCR, told to me by an NCR employee in the mid 90's. Basically, the AT&T execs thought the sharper, more powerful NCR execs were a-holes, so they fired them. What they didn't realize, is that those execs knew the parts down inside NCR that were still muscular and not useless and flubby, so after they were gone, NCR was just a dead weight around AT&T's neck for awhile. Both sides exist and need each other. They do indeed interact in subtle ways.
gambler 7y ago
You don't have to have hierarchy to have rules and you don't need to have rules to have a hierarchy.

mcguire 7y ago

"Command based on charisma, formidable personalities, and cliques" describes every structured, hierarchical business I've ever worked for. If there's one that's not, I've never even heard of it.

stcredzero 7y ago
As I note above, of course! All human groups have a hierarchical side and a communal side. That's simply the human condition.
- lovemenot 7y ago
  Responding in such a way as to make this seem like a private conversation which happens to be available publicly, is perhaps another example of hidden power relations, to which we've become all too familiar. I don't know how to say this in the right way. It's never really about you - no matter how good it might feel. Not really.

dragonwriter 7y ago

> Every time an organization claims to be flat and non-hierarchical, it is actually hierarchical, but the chain of command is invisible and based on the personal charisma of particular people, or sometimes based on their ability to bully and manipulate others. An organization without a formal structure will have an informal structure made up of various cliques This is true, but what is less frequently mentioned is that the same thing is invariably also true of organizations with formal heirarchies, and the actual structure based on personal charisma, manipulation, and bullying will often be significantly different than the formal heirarchy (which influences the actual heirarchy because position in the for heirarchy—especially when people believe in it—influences the ability to manipulate and bully, but never fully determines the actual heirarchy.)

stcredzero 7y ago
This is true, but what is less frequently mentioned is that the same thing is invariably also true of organizations with formal hierarchies Of course. All human groups have a hierarchical side and a communal side. That's simply the human condition. Sometimes it even seems like all the "magic" is on the communal side. This is true, but what is less frequently mentioned is that the same thing is invariably also true of organizations with formal heirarchies, and the actual structure based on personal charisma, manipulation, and bullying will often be significantly different than the formal heirarchy There's an old story about the AT&T takeover of NCR, told to me by an NCR employee in the mid 90's. Basically, the AT&T execs thought the sharper, more powerful NCR execs were a-holes, so they fired them. What they didn't realize, is that those execs knew the parts down inside NCR that were still muscular and not useless and flubby, so after they were gone, NCR was just a dead weight around AT&T's neck for awhile. Both sides exist and need each other. They do indeed interact in subtle ways.

gambler 7y ago

You don't have to have hierarchy to have rules and you don't need to have rules to have a hierarchy.