5 ms·

Which really means, if we invest in government subsidies for EVs, people will understand the real costs to the petroleum infrastructure (for those of you playin

by r00fus 7y ago

Which really means, if we invest in government subsidies for EVs, people will understand the real costs to the petroleum infrastructure (for those of you playing along at home - the petroleum industry gets billions in tax subsidies yearly already, so this would be a leveling of the playing field). The problem is a political/governance one.

w8vY7ER 7y ago
Don't forget the environment subsidizing the entire fossil fuel industry- that is a bill whose payments are now behind and with a lot of interest that will be passed on to everything on the planet instead of just those responsible for the negative consequences.
- noonespecial 7y ago
  That doesn't even sound that bad until you realize that the payments balloon and defaulting means extinction.
  - olivermarks 7y ago
    That's a little melodramatic. I just got back from Sweden and Norway and as others have noted the lavish subsidies make the extra expense of running an EV attractive. I was talking to a Swedish friend who follows climate scientist Piers Corbyn (the UK Labour party leader's brother) closely, and who wouldn't agree with your perception. https://twitter.com/piers_corbyn https://twitter.com/piers_corbyn EV's are very cost effective for now to seed the market, but once the subsidies are turned off it is questionable haw many thrifty Scandinavians will continue if there are more economically viable option open to them.
  - gridlockd 7y ago
    No it doesn't. Certain species may go extinct, but almost certainly not humans. Our ape ancestors evolved in an environment where temperatures were far higher than today. In fact, we're in a cool phase, as far as the global climate is concerned.
    - gambiting 7y ago
      Sure, absolutely. I don't think humans will go fully extinct. But it doesn't make me any less scared for the future. In short term - massive waves of immigrants coming to Europe because their own regions will have difficulty growing anything and having enough drinkable water. A million refugees has severely damaged the very principles of the EU, what is several million going to do, especially as the entire continent is slowly more and more right leaning? In longer scale, Ocean gets warmer, plankton dies, we start running out of oxygen. Not immediately - but slowly the percentage of it in the atmosphere will start dropping. I wouldn't be surprised if in a 100 years it will be common to have oxygen supply stations on the streets and if you can afford them - personal supplies of oxygen just so you can operate at 100% mental capacity. The rest will have to make do with feeling crappy all day long. And of course we're already starting to see signs that we might have triggered a self reinforcing loop - melting clathrates releasing methane, methane heating up the atmosphere, releasing more methane. No, humans won't die, absolutely not. But I'm 100% certain that the civilization as we know it is fucked.
      - gridlockd 7y ago
        There's a stark difference between "people will need to resettle" and "widespread extinction". Some of the coldest climates that are now largely uninhabited may thrive again, as they have in the past. Climate change, at any large enough timescale, is completely unavoidable. It's also (to me) inconceivable that humanity will agree to limit its standard of living now just so that climate change can be somewhat mitigated. > No, humans won't die, absolutely not. But I'm 100% certain that the civilization as we know it is fucked. In that regard, I'd be much more worried about the prospects of a nuclear war than about climate change.
        thfuran 7y ago
        >I'd be much more worried about the prospects of a nuclear war than about climate change Climate change seems like just the sort of thing that might start wars.
        7y ago
nostromo 7y ago
> the petroleum industry gets billions in tax subsidies yearly already, so this would be a leveling of the playing field Well... this is Norway. The oil industry isn't subsidized by the government, the government is subsidized by the oil industry.
- m463 7y ago
  I liked this story: "The Iraqi who saved Norway from oil" (2009) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19594153 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19594153
- zapnuk 7y ago
  The government IS the oil industy. They own 50-70% of every big oil company.
Proven 7y ago
> so this would be a leveling of the playing field That's great! Those who liked being plundered by one thief must love it now that they're being plundered by two! > The problem is a political/governance one. Problem is: some are too visually impaired to see it.

by r00fus 7y ago

w8vY7ER 7y ago

Don't forget the environment subsidizing the entire fossil fuel industry- that is a bill whose payments are now behind and with a lot of interest that will be passed on to everything on the planet instead of just those responsible for the negative consequences.

noonespecial 7y ago
That doesn't even sound that bad until you realize that the payments balloon and defaulting means extinction.
- olivermarks 7y ago
  That's a little melodramatic. I just got back from Sweden and Norway and as others have noted the lavish subsidies make the extra expense of running an EV attractive. I was talking to a Swedish friend who follows climate scientist Piers Corbyn (the UK Labour party leader's brother) closely, and who wouldn't agree with your perception. https://twitter.com/piers_corbyn https://twitter.com/piers_corbyn EV's are very cost effective for now to seed the market, but once the subsidies are turned off it is questionable haw many thrifty Scandinavians will continue if there are more economically viable option open to them.
- gridlockd 7y ago
  No it doesn't. Certain species may go extinct, but almost certainly not humans. Our ape ancestors evolved in an environment where temperatures were far higher than today. In fact, we're in a cool phase, as far as the global climate is concerned.
  - gambiting 7y ago
    Sure, absolutely. I don't think humans will go fully extinct. But it doesn't make me any less scared for the future. In short term - massive waves of immigrants coming to Europe because their own regions will have difficulty growing anything and having enough drinkable water. A million refugees has severely damaged the very principles of the EU, what is several million going to do, especially as the entire continent is slowly more and more right leaning? In longer scale, Ocean gets warmer, plankton dies, we start running out of oxygen. Not immediately - but slowly the percentage of it in the atmosphere will start dropping. I wouldn't be surprised if in a 100 years it will be common to have oxygen supply stations on the streets and if you can afford them - personal supplies of oxygen just so you can operate at 100% mental capacity. The rest will have to make do with feeling crappy all day long. And of course we're already starting to see signs that we might have triggered a self reinforcing loop - melting clathrates releasing methane, methane heating up the atmosphere, releasing more methane. No, humans won't die, absolutely not. But I'm 100% certain that the civilization as we know it is fucked.
    - gridlockd 7y ago
      There's a stark difference between "people will need to resettle" and "widespread extinction". Some of the coldest climates that are now largely uninhabited may thrive again, as they have in the past. Climate change, at any large enough timescale, is completely unavoidable. It's also (to me) inconceivable that humanity will agree to limit its standard of living now just so that climate change can be somewhat mitigated. > No, humans won't die, absolutely not. But I'm 100% certain that the civilization as we know it is fucked. In that regard, I'd be much more worried about the prospects of a nuclear war than about climate change.
      - thfuran 7y ago
        >I'd be much more worried about the prospects of a nuclear war than about climate change Climate change seems like just the sort of thing that might start wars.
        7y ago

nostromo 7y ago

> the petroleum industry gets billions in tax subsidies yearly already, so this would be a leveling of the playing field Well... this is Norway. The oil industry isn't subsidized by the government, the government is subsidized by the oil industry.

m463 7y ago
I liked this story: "The Iraqi who saved Norway from oil" (2009) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19594153 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19594153
zapnuk 7y ago
The government IS the oil industy. They own 50-70% of every big oil company.

Proven 7y ago

> so this would be a leveling of the playing field That's great! Those who liked being plundered by one thief must love it now that they're being plundered by two! > The problem is a political/governance one. Problem is: some are too visually impaired to see it.