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In UK I find electric cars are significantly more expensive and out of reach of the average car buyer, even with government subsidies. is this the case elsewher

by ptah 7y ago

In UK I find electric cars are significantly more expensive and out of reach of the average car buyer, even with government subsidies. is this the case elsewhere? why are they so expensive? EDIT: I have a hybrid, but the equivalent electric is double the price

Filligree 7y ago
Electric cars are more expensive to build, which may or may not be made up for by increased general reliability. On the other hand, in Norway the vast majority of the price tag is taxes. This helps.
- agumonkey 7y ago
  what's more expensive ? beside the battery ?
  - adrianN 7y ago
    I'd guess much lower production volume.
  - gameswithgo 7y ago
    its just the battery I think
  - magicalhippo 7y ago
    Mainly the battery it seems[1]. Apparently the ICE costs about the same to the electric motors and power electronics, rest of the car is more or less the same. [1]: https://youtu.be/N0RCZVY9Dvk?t=2141 https://youtu.be/N0RCZVY9Dvk?t=2141
    - agumonkey 7y ago
      I think most EV design are actually simpler than ICEs. No gearbox, massively simpler engine. Other than that yeah.. seats, doors, wheeldrive... same old.
      - magicalhippo 7y ago
        Simpler doesn't imply cheaper. The power electronics and electric motors must be of very high efficiency to maximize range.
      - microcolonel 7y ago
        It's not as much less complicated as you think, and keep in mind that there are a lot of useful side effects of ICEs: for example, the refrigerant/AC compressor can be run directly off the engine, the heat from the engine can be used to heat the cab, the cooling loops can be cycled by pumps powered directly by the engine. When it comes to the pure drivetrain: yes, the transmission is simpler (though there still is almost always a transmission), but once you add in the accessories which make cars practical in bad weather, and the added chassis load (in the case of high-end EVs with close to gasoline car range), and the relative ease of mining and producing steel and other bulk materials vs. rare earth materials.... Well, it at least becomes a wash. For the foreseeable future, producing electric passenger vehicles that compete with their gas counterparts in a meaningful way will continue to be extremely energy and mineral intensive, and therefore expensive.
        agumonkey 7y ago
        true, I was confusing ownership cost vs manufacturing cost.
agumonkey 7y ago
I can only guess: - battery prices are still 30% of the total cost IIRC - economies of scale might not apply to EV yet. In larger volumes, standardized parts, you'd probably get lower prices. It's a bootstrapping that could be eased by govt intervention. Making a stronger plan to migrate towards EVs so that manufacturers can safely ramp up production.
rapsey 7y ago
In my country the government subsidies for electric vehicles are setup just the way other subsidies are, with the same effect in the end. Making the underlying product more expensive. If the subsidy is amount X, sellers raise the price by X.
turtlebits 7y ago
I bought a Chevy Bolt for ~$25.5k USD last year - including taxes/fees and the -$7.5k tax credit.
- Xixi 7y ago
  I don't know in the UK, but in France the most sold cars (Peugeot 208, Renault Clio, etc.) start around $16k (all taxes included). The best selling electric car [1] (Renault Zoe) starts at $19.5k (all taxes included, and including subsidies of $6.8k), but that doesn't include the batteries that have to be rented ($80/month) -> that adds $4.8k over 5 years. So in fact it's priced quite similarly to your Chevy Bolt. So roughly speaking we are looking at $5k to $10k more for an electric car over an ICE one. It's not out of reach for all, but it's still out of reach for many. The median after-tax income in France is I think about $2k/month. Disclaimer: all the figures I used were in EUR, that I translated to USD at current rate: so all the numbers will vary widely based on the EUR/USD fx rate. [1] Figures for 2019 until May 31st: https://cleantechnica.com/2019/06/15/french-ev-sales-up-34-in-may-2019/ https://cleantechnica.com/2019/06/15/french-ev-sales-up-34-i...
  - cogman10 7y ago
    I think fuel/maintenance costs are where EVs start winning. France has a $.14EU cost per kWh and ~$1.40 per liter of petrol/gas. That comes to about $0.014 EU per km and around $0.07 EU per km in france. This assumes an engine efficiency of 0.05L petrol per km (20km per L) and 100 Wh per km. In other words, with a lot of driving, electric will ultimately be a lot cheaper to operate. At 90km, you'd break even in france (assuming 5k price difference). That's about 18km per year.
microcolonel 7y ago
> why are they so expensive Because they are relatively difficult to produce, and require resources which are not extracted and processed at the rate required to sell as many of them as hybrids or gasoline cars.
Certhas 7y ago
There was a study recently that came to the conclusion that EVs are already cheaper to own in the UK: https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2019/feb/12/electric-cars-already-cheaper-own-run-study https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2019/feb/12/electric... Is your context significantly different from that of the study? Or do you think there are unreasonable assumptions in there?
- frereubu 7y ago
  I think they were saying that electric cars are more expensive to buy. - the tax breaks aren't nearly as significant in the UK.
- C1sc0cat 7y ago
  With or with out the subsidy for the well of middle class?
- michaelbuckbee 7y ago
  Thanks for pointing this out, I hadn't seen that and think the data is really compelling as all comparisons were for the same model VW Golf with ev, hybrid, petrol and diesel versions. The one cost element not in the article (likely b/c of the time frame) was repair and maintenance costs - which I'd also suspect the EV cars to fare better with.
  - tonyedgecombe 7y ago
    Interestingly you can't buy the electric or hybrid Golfs at the moment, they have been withdrawn from sale in the UK. My guess is the waiting list extends out until the new model is available.
  - Gibbon1 7y ago
    Was rolling that over. I suspect repair and maintenance cost savings probably don't kick in very much until after the warranted period expires. So higher sales price means higher initial operating costs. Compare a couple hundred a month car payments with $30-40/month savings on fuel. So someone buying an EV today isn't going to save any real money for the first 5-6 years. Who ever buys the car on the used market will likely do well though.

by ptah 7y ago

Filligree 7y ago

Electric cars are more expensive to build, which may or may not be made up for by increased general reliability. On the other hand, in Norway the vast majority of the price tag is taxes. This helps.

agumonkey 7y ago
what's more expensive ? beside the battery ?
- adrianN 7y ago
  I'd guess much lower production volume.
- gameswithgo 7y ago
  its just the battery I think
- magicalhippo 7y ago
  Mainly the battery it seems[1]. Apparently the ICE costs about the same to the electric motors and power electronics, rest of the car is more or less the same. [1]: https://youtu.be/N0RCZVY9Dvk?t=2141 https://youtu.be/N0RCZVY9Dvk?t=2141
  - agumonkey 7y ago
    I think most EV design are actually simpler than ICEs. No gearbox, massively simpler engine. Other than that yeah.. seats, doors, wheeldrive... same old.
    - magicalhippo 7y ago
      Simpler doesn't imply cheaper. The power electronics and electric motors must be of very high efficiency to maximize range.
    - microcolonel 7y ago
      It's not as much less complicated as you think, and keep in mind that there are a lot of useful side effects of ICEs: for example, the refrigerant/AC compressor can be run directly off the engine, the heat from the engine can be used to heat the cab, the cooling loops can be cycled by pumps powered directly by the engine. When it comes to the pure drivetrain: yes, the transmission is simpler (though there still is almost always a transmission), but once you add in the accessories which make cars practical in bad weather, and the added chassis load (in the case of high-end EVs with close to gasoline car range), and the relative ease of mining and producing steel and other bulk materials vs. rare earth materials.... Well, it at least becomes a wash. For the foreseeable future, producing electric passenger vehicles that compete with their gas counterparts in a meaningful way will continue to be extremely energy and mineral intensive, and therefore expensive.
      - agumonkey 7y ago
        true, I was confusing ownership cost vs manufacturing cost.

agumonkey 7y ago

I can only guess: - battery prices are still 30% of the total cost IIRC - economies of scale might not apply to EV yet. In larger volumes, standardized parts, you'd probably get lower prices. It's a bootstrapping that could be eased by govt intervention. Making a stronger plan to migrate towards EVs so that manufacturers can safely ramp up production.

rapsey 7y ago

In my country the government subsidies for electric vehicles are setup just the way other subsidies are, with the same effect in the end. Making the underlying product more expensive. If the subsidy is amount X, sellers raise the price by X.

turtlebits 7y ago

I bought a Chevy Bolt for ~$25.5k USD last year - including taxes/fees and the -$7.5k tax credit.

Xixi 7y ago
I don't know in the UK, but in France the most sold cars (Peugeot 208, Renault Clio, etc.) start around $16k (all taxes included). The best selling electric car [1] (Renault Zoe) starts at $19.5k (all taxes included, and including subsidies of $6.8k), but that doesn't include the batteries that have to be rented ($80/month) -> that adds $4.8k over 5 years. So in fact it's priced quite similarly to your Chevy Bolt. So roughly speaking we are looking at $5k to $10k more for an electric car over an ICE one. It's not out of reach for all, but it's still out of reach for many. The median after-tax income in France is I think about $2k/month. Disclaimer: all the figures I used were in EUR, that I translated to USD at current rate: so all the numbers will vary widely based on the EUR/USD fx rate. [1] Figures for 2019 until May 31st: https://cleantechnica.com/2019/06/15/french-ev-sales-up-34-in-may-2019/ https://cleantechnica.com/2019/06/15/french-ev-sales-up-34-i...
- cogman10 7y ago
  I think fuel/maintenance costs are where EVs start winning. France has a $.14EU cost per kWh and ~$1.40 per liter of petrol/gas. That comes to about $0.014 EU per km and around $0.07 EU per km in france. This assumes an engine efficiency of 0.05L petrol per km (20km per L) and 100 Wh per km. In other words, with a lot of driving, electric will ultimately be a lot cheaper to operate. At 90km, you'd break even in france (assuming 5k price difference). That's about 18km per year.

microcolonel 7y ago

> why are they so expensive Because they are relatively difficult to produce, and require resources which are not extracted and processed at the rate required to sell as many of them as hybrids or gasoline cars.

Certhas 7y ago

There was a study recently that came to the conclusion that EVs are already cheaper to own in the UK: https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2019/feb/12/electric-cars-already-cheaper-own-run-study https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2019/feb/12/electric... Is your context significantly different from that of the study? Or do you think there are unreasonable assumptions in there?

frereubu 7y ago
I think they were saying that electric cars are more expensive to buy. - the tax breaks aren't nearly as significant in the UK.
C1sc0cat 7y ago
With or with out the subsidy for the well of middle class?
michaelbuckbee 7y ago
Thanks for pointing this out, I hadn't seen that and think the data is really compelling as all comparisons were for the same model VW Golf with ev, hybrid, petrol and diesel versions. The one cost element not in the article (likely b/c of the time frame) was repair and maintenance costs - which I'd also suspect the EV cars to fare better with.
- tonyedgecombe 7y ago
  Interestingly you can't buy the electric or hybrid Golfs at the moment, they have been withdrawn from sale in the UK. My guess is the waiting list extends out until the new model is available.
- Gibbon1 7y ago
  Was rolling that over. I suspect repair and maintenance cost savings probably don't kick in very much until after the warranted period expires. So higher sales price means higher initial operating costs. Compare a couple hundred a month car payments with $30-40/month savings on fuel. So someone buying an EV today isn't going to save any real money for the first 5-6 years. Who ever buys the car on the used market will likely do well though.