5 ms·

So we are just going to ignore the 20% sales tax that got slapped onto the 1.2bn worth of sales? cool

by sparkling 7y ago

lexapro 7y ago
Which is paid by Apple customers, not Apple.
- CodeFunctor 7y ago
  If you know economics, you should know a tax on the final price of Apples goods will decrease demand; which means both Apple and it's consumers will pay that tax with a shared burden.
  - heavenlyblue 7y ago
    If you know economics, then you should also know that while demand is proportional to the total asking price, it’s not a linear relationship. So whatever the price is paid, it’s mainly paid by customers.
  - benj111 7y ago
    If I buy an iphone via a shop who gets to book the vat, the shop or Apple? If its Apple why do they have a greater claim over someone else further up the chain? If I buy an iphone as part of a Vat registered business I can claim that vat back. So does that Vat get booked twice? It is paid by consumers because they are the ones that ultimately pay it. Businesses that pay vat can claim it back so that the 'value added' only gets taxed once. Apple has added value, but so have others.
- Reason077 7y ago
  > "Which is paid by Apple customers, not Apple." VAT is paid by businesses, who collect it on behalf of HMRC on any sales they make. Yes, it adds 20% to the price of goods sold. But you could say this of any tax: if Apple was paying £200m in UK corporate taxes then it's a fair bet that prices would increase to compensate. What is unfair, however, is the way that multi-nationals can shift profits across borders to low tax countries, putting them at an advantage relative to domestic competition who pay full UK corporate tax rates.
  - youngtaff 7y ago
    It's still paid for by the customer, in a way corporation tax is not
  - AnthonyMouse 7y ago
    > What is unfair, however, is the way that multi-nationals can shift profits across borders to low tax countries, putting them at an advantage relative to domestic competition who pay full UK corporate tax rates. That unfairness is inherent to corporate income tax. Apple reports profits in Ireland because the rate is lower there, but if the rates were lower in the US or China or some other place where they actually have major operations and they reported profits there instead, the argument that the profits don't belong there falls away even though you have the same end result. And the same disadvantage for domestic companies compared to international ones. The solution is to stop trying to tax "profit" to begin with and only tax the thing that actually happens in your jurisdiction (e.g. sales, employment, property ownership).
- mbell 7y ago
  Corporations don't hold tax burden, only people do. Corporate taxes are ultimately paid by shareholders, workers and customers; 'Apple' never pays taxes. In a fairly free global economy, many economists hold that workers bear the brunt of the corporate tax burden.
deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
benj111 7y ago
Apple isnt paying that though, the consumer is.
- tonyedgecombe 7y ago
  It doesn't really make much difference, the consumer sees a price that includes VAT and the tax is paid.
  - benj111 7y ago
    The article is about Apple only paying £3.8m tax, the OP is pointing out they're paying Vat, the implication is they're paying much more. In that situation it does make a difference.
    - tonyedgecombe 7y ago
      If you are looking at it from the perspective of enough tax being paid then it doesn't really matter. If you are trying to consider whether it is fair then you would dump corporation tax in an instant and start considering capital gains and dividends as normal income.
      - benj111 7y ago
        Corporation tax is trending down, basically because companies can move where its lowest. I'm not sure where the fairness comes in, what's unfair about corporation tax? Taxing dividends as income seems sensible, capital gains should be distinct. You can make a loss for a start. The income tends to be lumpier, if you sell you business for $100k should you be taxed as earning $100kpa when that's your income from 5 years work?
        tonyedgecombe 7y ago
        what's unfair about corporation tax It's easier for big companies to avoid it giving them an unfair advantage over their smaller competitors. Also, at least in the UK, it's often used as a way for employees to avoid paying income tax. The tax authorities have been trying to stop this for years with questionable success.

So we are just going to ignore the 20% sales tax that got slapped onto the 1.2bn worth of sales? cool

lexapro 7y ago

Which is paid by Apple customers, not Apple.

CodeFunctor 7y ago
If you know economics, you should know a tax on the final price of Apples goods will decrease demand; which means both Apple and it's consumers will pay that tax with a shared burden.
- heavenlyblue 7y ago
  If you know economics, then you should also know that while demand is proportional to the total asking price, it’s not a linear relationship. So whatever the price is paid, it’s mainly paid by customers.
- benj111 7y ago
  If I buy an iphone via a shop who gets to book the vat, the shop or Apple? If its Apple why do they have a greater claim over someone else further up the chain? If I buy an iphone as part of a Vat registered business I can claim that vat back. So does that Vat get booked twice? It is paid by consumers because they are the ones that ultimately pay it. Businesses that pay vat can claim it back so that the 'value added' only gets taxed once. Apple has added value, but so have others.
Reason077 7y ago
> "Which is paid by Apple customers, not Apple." VAT is paid by businesses, who collect it on behalf of HMRC on any sales they make. Yes, it adds 20% to the price of goods sold. But you could say this of any tax: if Apple was paying £200m in UK corporate taxes then it's a fair bet that prices would increase to compensate. What is unfair, however, is the way that multi-nationals can shift profits across borders to low tax countries, putting them at an advantage relative to domestic competition who pay full UK corporate tax rates.
- youngtaff 7y ago
  It's still paid for by the customer, in a way corporation tax is not
- AnthonyMouse 7y ago
  > What is unfair, however, is the way that multi-nationals can shift profits across borders to low tax countries, putting them at an advantage relative to domestic competition who pay full UK corporate tax rates. That unfairness is inherent to corporate income tax. Apple reports profits in Ireland because the rate is lower there, but if the rates were lower in the US or China or some other place where they actually have major operations and they reported profits there instead, the argument that the profits don't belong there falls away even though you have the same end result. And the same disadvantage for domestic companies compared to international ones. The solution is to stop trying to tax "profit" to begin with and only tax the thing that actually happens in your jurisdiction (e.g. sales, employment, property ownership).
mbell 7y ago
Corporations don't hold tax burden, only people do. Corporate taxes are ultimately paid by shareholders, workers and customers; 'Apple' never pays taxes. In a fairly free global economy, many economists hold that workers bear the brunt of the corporate tax burden.

deleted 7y ago

[deleted]

benj111 7y ago

Apple isnt paying that though, the consumer is.

tonyedgecombe 7y ago
It doesn't really make much difference, the consumer sees a price that includes VAT and the tax is paid.
- benj111 7y ago
  The article is about Apple only paying £3.8m tax, the OP is pointing out they're paying Vat, the implication is they're paying much more. In that situation it does make a difference.
  - tonyedgecombe 7y ago
    If you are looking at it from the perspective of enough tax being paid then it doesn't really matter. If you are trying to consider whether it is fair then you would dump corporation tax in an instant and start considering capital gains and dividends as normal income.
    - benj111 7y ago
      Corporation tax is trending down, basically because companies can move where its lowest. I'm not sure where the fairness comes in, what's unfair about corporation tax? Taxing dividends as income seems sensible, capital gains should be distinct. You can make a loss for a start. The income tends to be lumpier, if you sell you business for $100k should you be taxed as earning $100kpa when that's your income from 5 years work?
      - tonyedgecombe 7y ago
        what's unfair about corporation tax It's easier for big companies to avoid it giving them an unfair advantage over their smaller competitors. Also, at least in the UK, it's often used as a way for employees to avoid paying income tax. The tax authorities have been trying to stop this for years with questionable success.