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There are several problems: 1) There are many people in my life who would make it much more difficult if they knew how much I make. I've kept it from them for

There are several problems: 1) There are many people in my life who would make it much more difficult if they knew how much I make. I've kept it from them for a very good reason and they're definitely the kind of people who would just go and look that kind of stuff about random people they know. This would tell them how much I have in investments and property as well. 2) It would necessarily reveal far too much personally identifying information or not serve the purpose you'd want it to. If I had ran away from an abusive or stalking relationship, they could simply look up the state and municipality I pay taxes in, and what company I worked for, making it almost trivial to find me. This could also mean finding (and targeting) anyone that works for a certain company. 3) It would be far too easy for companies to use this information for any number of purposes. I'm currently getting a huge amount of mail about moving companies and brokers because my landlord publicly put my condo up for sale. It could get much worse than that. 4) If I'm the daughter of an extremely conservative family but I'm working at a strip club, even if I'm "not proud" of what I do that give no good cause to expose it to the world. These are the situations from off the top of my head and already it would reveal far more information than I'm comfortable with. "If you have nothing to fear than you have nothing to hide" is never an appropriate excuse to curtail anyone's privacy.

jacknews 7y ago
4) If I'm the daughter of an extremely conservative family but I'm working at a strip club, even if I'm "not proud" of what I do that give no good cause to expose it to the world. Why would "strip club" be exposed? Only the amount you make should be. Your arguments all seem rather selfish. I realise the proposal might be extremely uncomfortable for some, but consider the overall benefits.
- ben509 7y ago
  > Why would "strip club" be exposed? Because the EIN is listed on the W-2, which is filed as part of the return. And if you're going to reply that you meant some abbreviated form of the tax return, then: The "what have you got to hide" class of arguments you're using to insist we expose an abbreviated version would also apply to expanding the abbreviated version to full disclosure. And you might be reasonable enough to stop, but that doesn't mean others will be. People have strong motives to want to dig into political opponents or people they don't like, and we know from history the "what have you got to hide" question and friends are routinely used in trying to eviscerate 4A and 5A rights.
  - jacknews 7y ago
    OK, I see that point, I think only the gross amount of your income/taxes should be public, not any individual deductions etc. But my argument is not so much "what have you got to hide", but more "we're all in this together".
- close04 7y ago
  I see a case to opening up your tax returns if you want to touch/receive public (state) money under any shape or form. I mean if you're expecting everyone to contribute to your well-being then be prepared to offer something in return(s).
- notahacker 7y ago
  Taxable incomes which appear remarkably high for a young, attractive person who works an "evening shift" alongside their study course might be something of a giveaway (And yes, people jumping to entirely the wrong conclusion is another potential issue...)
freddie_mercury 7y ago
Tax returns are public in Sweden, Finland, Norway, and Iceland. Do you think your 4 examples are endemic problems in those countries?
- vidar 7y ago
  In Iceland the returns are not public in their entirety, just the total taxable income and the total bill due.
  - jacknews 7y ago
    Yes, I perhaps misspoke when I said tax returns. Of course the actual individual deductions should not be public, only the gross amounts.
- ben509 7y ago
  I'm sure they're resourceful enough they've figured out how to work around those problems, but wouldn't it be simpler to not create the problem in the first place?
- mbeex 7y ago
  Probably not, but these are not the only or even the most significant problems. Social control for example, belongs to the more important ones. Made easier (also their dark sides) especially in consensus-driven societies, most scandinavian countries adhere to.
  - bildung 7y ago
    Isn't social control exactly the intended goal? IMO this is the whole point of the article: If the public knows about Amazons tax returns, the expected result is public (=social) pressure against Amazon.
    - mbeex 7y ago
      My answer went to the parent, not the article. The problem is another one in this case (privacy and her value). And in this context (mutual) social control has the mentioned dark sides, that should be considered.
socialdemocrat 7y ago
Most of your points are strawman arguments to be fair. People complicate these matters far more than they actually are. How do I know? Because what you pay in taxes has been public information in my home country Norway for many decades. None of the problems you mentioned have been an issue. As hard as it may seem, Norway values BOTH transparency AND privacy more than the US. So there are lots of laws which protect your privacy. 1) It does not state HOW you make your living. Just roughly how much you pay in taxes and how much you earn. The details are left out. 2) There are always systems in place to help protect citizens with special needs for more privacy. 3) Companies in Norway cannot pass around information about you to each other or store information about you it does not strictly need. It is not like the US where companies can en masse huge amounts of data about customers and sell it to each other. Information gathering for commercial purposes is quite restricted. 4) As a rule in Norway, you are informed about people obtaining information about you. E.g. if a company does a credit history check on me, I will get a mail stating exactly what company credit checked me and word by word, what information they where provided. The credit check info leaves out a lot of the details that would be available in the US. Same goes if somebody checks your taxes and income. You are informed of who makes the check and what info they have been provided. I hope this gives an idea of how you can in fact embrace greater transparency while at the same time promote stronger privacy laws. I can remark that Norwegian politicians and CEOs are among the lowest paid in the world despite Norway being among the richest countries in the world. I think our long tradition for transparency is a contributing factor to that. Not so fun to be greedy when it is obvious to everyone.
TheCondor 7y ago
What’s the best way to provide oversight for the IRS? There should be some openness just to verify that they are doing their job properly. I don’t deny the privacy issues but there is this intensely powerful federal agency that it’s nearly impossible to have real oversight for. Most of your examples also seem to impact those that present differently than they really are, I’m not saying that that’s not a valuable ability but it’s interesting. I wonder how much of our current political situation is due to believing or rejecting how others present...

jacknews 7y ago

4) If I'm the daughter of an extremely conservative family but I'm working at a strip club, even if I'm "not proud" of what I do that give no good cause to expose it to the world. Why would "strip club" be exposed? Only the amount you make should be. Your arguments all seem rather selfish. I realise the proposal might be extremely uncomfortable for some, but consider the overall benefits.

ben509 7y ago
> Why would "strip club" be exposed? Because the EIN is listed on the W-2, which is filed as part of the return. And if you're going to reply that you meant some abbreviated form of the tax return, then: The "what have you got to hide" class of arguments you're using to insist we expose an abbreviated version would also apply to expanding the abbreviated version to full disclosure. And you might be reasonable enough to stop, but that doesn't mean others will be. People have strong motives to want to dig into political opponents or people they don't like, and we know from history the "what have you got to hide" question and friends are routinely used in trying to eviscerate 4A and 5A rights.
- jacknews 7y ago
  OK, I see that point, I think only the gross amount of your income/taxes should be public, not any individual deductions etc. But my argument is not so much "what have you got to hide", but more "we're all in this together".
close04 7y ago
I see a case to opening up your tax returns if you want to touch/receive public (state) money under any shape or form. I mean if you're expecting everyone to contribute to your well-being then be prepared to offer something in return(s).
notahacker 7y ago
Taxable incomes which appear remarkably high for a young, attractive person who works an "evening shift" alongside their study course might be something of a giveaway (And yes, people jumping to entirely the wrong conclusion is another potential issue...)

freddie_mercury 7y ago

Tax returns are public in Sweden, Finland, Norway, and Iceland. Do you think your 4 examples are endemic problems in those countries?

vidar 7y ago
In Iceland the returns are not public in their entirety, just the total taxable income and the total bill due.
- jacknews 7y ago
  Yes, I perhaps misspoke when I said tax returns. Of course the actual individual deductions should not be public, only the gross amounts.
ben509 7y ago
I'm sure they're resourceful enough they've figured out how to work around those problems, but wouldn't it be simpler to not create the problem in the first place?
mbeex 7y ago
Probably not, but these are not the only or even the most significant problems. Social control for example, belongs to the more important ones. Made easier (also their dark sides) especially in consensus-driven societies, most scandinavian countries adhere to.
- bildung 7y ago
  Isn't social control exactly the intended goal? IMO this is the whole point of the article: If the public knows about Amazons tax returns, the expected result is public (=social) pressure against Amazon.
  - mbeex 7y ago
    My answer went to the parent, not the article. The problem is another one in this case (privacy and her value). And in this context (mutual) social control has the mentioned dark sides, that should be considered.

socialdemocrat 7y ago

Most of your points are strawman arguments to be fair. People complicate these matters far more than they actually are. How do I know? Because what you pay in taxes has been public information in my home country Norway for many decades. None of the problems you mentioned have been an issue. As hard as it may seem, Norway values BOTH transparency AND privacy more than the US. So there are lots of laws which protect your privacy. 1) It does not state HOW you make your living. Just roughly how much you pay in taxes and how much you earn. The details are left out. 2) There are always systems in place to help protect citizens with special needs for more privacy. 3) Companies in Norway cannot pass around information about you to each other or store information about you it does not strictly need. It is not like the US where companies can en masse huge amounts of data about customers and sell it to each other. Information gathering for commercial purposes is quite restricted. 4) As a rule in Norway, you are informed about people obtaining information about you. E.g. if a company does a credit history check on me, I will get a mail stating exactly what company credit checked me and word by word, what information they where provided. The credit check info leaves out a lot of the details that would be available in the US. Same goes if somebody checks your taxes and income. You are informed of who makes the check and what info they have been provided. I hope this gives an idea of how you can in fact embrace greater transparency while at the same time promote stronger privacy laws. I can remark that Norwegian politicians and CEOs are among the lowest paid in the world despite Norway being among the richest countries in the world. I think our long tradition for transparency is a contributing factor to that. Not so fun to be greedy when it is obvious to everyone.

TheCondor 7y ago

What’s the best way to provide oversight for the IRS? There should be some openness just to verify that they are doing their job properly. I don’t deny the privacy issues but there is this intensely powerful federal agency that it’s nearly impossible to have real oversight for. Most of your examples also seem to impact those that present differently than they really are, I’m not saying that that’s not a valuable ability but it’s interesting. I wonder how much of our current political situation is due to believing or rejecting how others present...