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I don't necessarily think you're trolling, but I totally understand why you're being downvoted. Being able to compartmentalize and analyze different facets of

I don't necessarily think you're trolling, but I totally understand why you're being downvoted. Being able to compartmentalize and analyze different facets of something is (I think) an important intellectual tool. Example: I can enjoy Richard Wagner's music even though he was a demonstrably terrible person. I'm not an LDS, and I don't like some of the things that the church does, but I can still appreciate the things they do well.

grantheaslip 16y ago
I definitely see what you're saying, and that's a very good analogy. I guess the difference for me is that Wagner's music and anti-semitism were two mostly separate things -- his music wasn't being used to promote his prejudices. On the other hand, the LDS's SEO, by its very purpose, is promoting their ideology. I just find this casual discussion about the self-promotion of a group which at its very core believes that friends of mine are inferior, sinful, damaged goods because of the way that they were born a bit upsetting. Even if SEO practise is a separate topic from their scripture, I think that this kind of discussion attributes to them an undeserved level of legitimacy.
- anamax 16y ago
  > I guess the difference for me is that Wagner's music and anti-semitism were two mostly separate things -- his music wasn't being used to promote his prejudices. Actually, Wagner's music was used to promote his prejudices, however Wagner himself didn't have much of a role in said promotion (as he was dead long before the 1930s).
- phuff 16y ago
  Hey, grantheaslip, I know this is offtopic, but I'm LDS and just fwiw, we aren't "a group which at its very core believes that friends of mine are inferior, sinful, damaged goods because of the way that they were born." In fact, the LDS church doesn't think anybody is damaged goods, gay, straight or otherwise. I have a few really good friends who are gay and LDS and would take issue with that statement, too. That doesn't mean that we see things the same way you do, but we wouldn't call anybody damaged goods. People are just too good and precious to be thought of that way.
  - grantheaslip 16y ago
    To be fair, they just recently slightly improved their stance on homosexuality, but saying "the LDS church doesn't think anybody is damaged goods" is whitewashing at best. Here's the new, improved policy: http://www.religiondispatches.org/dispatches/joannabrooks/3720/homosexual_thoughts_and_feelings_not_a_sin%2C_says_new_lds_handbook/ http://www.religiondispatches.org/dispatches/joannabrooks/37... In short, gay people are sinners, are "subject to church discipline", but can be forgiven if they repent for their sins (i.e. stop being gay -- i.e. stop being themselves). Church leaders should tell them to "control unrighteous thoughts". And they aren't allowed to attend Church. The only substantive positive change is that church leaders are no longer told to send gay members to counselling, which they were up until a month ago. How is telling someone "you can't be a real Mormon or go to heaven unless you stop being gay" not telling them they're damaged goods? I don't want to say you're lying about your gay Mormon friends, but presumably they can't actually go to church, and through some kind of Stockholm syndrome consider themselves a member of an organisation that thinks that "Homosexual behaviour can be forgiven through sincere repentance". Sure, you can talk about how you think everyone is good and precious and deserves love, but beyond platitudes, the Church's policies on homosexuality are pretty clear.
    - phuff 16y ago
      2 quick responses and then I'll bow out. First, nobody is told they're not allowed to attend church. In fact, people who are excommunicated from the Mormon church are in fact _encouraged_ to keep attending so that they can come back into what's called "full fellowship" of the church by changing their lives to meet the standards of the church. Secondly, there is a distinction between being gay and having sex. Mormons, gay or straight, can't have sex outside of marriage. If a gay person has outside of marriage they are subject to the same discipline that a straight person who has sex outside of marriage would have. Some of my gay, believing Mormon friends are simply chaste. Some of my gay, believeing Mormon friends are in heterosexual marriages. They do this with the full knowledge of their spouses, and with no hope of becoming straight, just because they feel like it's the right thing for them. Nobody is telling anybody they can't go to heaven or be a real Mormon unless they stop being gay. They're saying, "be chaste." I know that's a distinction that will probably be lost, but it's a real distinction, and a real requirement that all Mormons try to live up to when they're not married. All that notwithstanding, I assure you I'm not lying about my gay Mormon friends, if you're ever in the Salt Lake area look me up, I'm sure they'd love to meet you :) One of them is always looking for good hackers for various projects.

grantheaslip 16y ago

I definitely see what you're saying, and that's a very good analogy. I guess the difference for me is that Wagner's music and anti-semitism were two mostly separate things -- his music wasn't being used to promote his prejudices. On the other hand, the LDS's SEO, by its very purpose, is promoting their ideology. I just find this casual discussion about the self-promotion of a group which at its very core believes that friends of mine are inferior, sinful, damaged goods because of the way that they were born a bit upsetting. Even if SEO practise is a separate topic from their scripture, I think that this kind of discussion attributes to them an undeserved level of legitimacy.

anamax 16y ago
> I guess the difference for me is that Wagner's music and anti-semitism were two mostly separate things -- his music wasn't being used to promote his prejudices. Actually, Wagner's music was used to promote his prejudices, however Wagner himself didn't have much of a role in said promotion (as he was dead long before the 1930s).
phuff 16y ago
Hey, grantheaslip, I know this is offtopic, but I'm LDS and just fwiw, we aren't "a group which at its very core believes that friends of mine are inferior, sinful, damaged goods because of the way that they were born." In fact, the LDS church doesn't think anybody is damaged goods, gay, straight or otherwise. I have a few really good friends who are gay and LDS and would take issue with that statement, too. That doesn't mean that we see things the same way you do, but we wouldn't call anybody damaged goods. People are just too good and precious to be thought of that way.
- grantheaslip 16y ago
  To be fair, they just recently slightly improved their stance on homosexuality, but saying "the LDS church doesn't think anybody is damaged goods" is whitewashing at best. Here's the new, improved policy: http://www.religiondispatches.org/dispatches/joannabrooks/3720/homosexual_thoughts_and_feelings_not_a_sin%2C_says_new_lds_handbook/ http://www.religiondispatches.org/dispatches/joannabrooks/37... In short, gay people are sinners, are "subject to church discipline", but can be forgiven if they repent for their sins (i.e. stop being gay -- i.e. stop being themselves). Church leaders should tell them to "control unrighteous thoughts". And they aren't allowed to attend Church. The only substantive positive change is that church leaders are no longer told to send gay members to counselling, which they were up until a month ago. How is telling someone "you can't be a real Mormon or go to heaven unless you stop being gay" not telling them they're damaged goods? I don't want to say you're lying about your gay Mormon friends, but presumably they can't actually go to church, and through some kind of Stockholm syndrome consider themselves a member of an organisation that thinks that "Homosexual behaviour can be forgiven through sincere repentance". Sure, you can talk about how you think everyone is good and precious and deserves love, but beyond platitudes, the Church's policies on homosexuality are pretty clear.
  - phuff 16y ago
    2 quick responses and then I'll bow out. First, nobody is told they're not allowed to attend church. In fact, people who are excommunicated from the Mormon church are in fact _encouraged_ to keep attending so that they can come back into what's called "full fellowship" of the church by changing their lives to meet the standards of the church. Secondly, there is a distinction between being gay and having sex. Mormons, gay or straight, can't have sex outside of marriage. If a gay person has outside of marriage they are subject to the same discipline that a straight person who has sex outside of marriage would have. Some of my gay, believing Mormon friends are simply chaste. Some of my gay, believeing Mormon friends are in heterosexual marriages. They do this with the full knowledge of their spouses, and with no hope of becoming straight, just because they feel like it's the right thing for them. Nobody is telling anybody they can't go to heaven or be a real Mormon unless they stop being gay. They're saying, "be chaste." I know that's a distinction that will probably be lost, but it's a real distinction, and a real requirement that all Mormons try to live up to when they're not married. All that notwithstanding, I assure you I'm not lying about my gay Mormon friends, if you're ever in the Salt Lake area look me up, I'm sure they'd love to meet you :) One of them is always looking for good hackers for various projects.