7 ms·

Did he actually take part in the engineering?

by __m 7y ago

bch 7y ago
Successful industrial design must necessarily be engineer-able or its just wishful thinking, no?
- tempguy9999 7y ago
  Do you consider Ive's later designs as 'successful'? I don't know as I don't use apple but I heard of lot of grumbling off of those that do.
  - deleted 7y ago
    [deleted]
  - TheOtherHobbes 7y ago
    Industrial design includes materials science and process design as well as aesthetics. In fact the aesthetics are the easy part. Ive has always talked about materials and processes in interviews and videos, so it's unlikely his sole contribution has been doodling rounded rectangles on napkins. The question is the extent to which Apple's recent missteps are his fault. Jobs seems to have had veto power over bad or self-indulgent design. Cook isn't aesthetically sophisticated enough to do that with any flair. That leaves complicated collective politics in charge of the design process. Promoting Ive out of the company may or may not improve that - time will tell.
    - thom 7y ago
      I bought plenty of Apple hardware with fundamental thermal issues or other problems caused by overreaching design during Jobs' reign, so I'm not sure how much he exercised this veto.
      - ksec 7y ago
        Again, purely from the thinness issue, ( and not the keyboard ) The current 2016 MBP design were likely done in 2014/2015, with Intel's roadmap pointing to 10nm in 2016 and 7nm in 2019. Intel over promised on 10nm super low power capability ( Well may be that is still true, but no one know it couldn't yield ), and you would naturally expect 7nm with EUV to be better. The 2016 MBP design had 45W TDP for CPU in mind, Imagine the 2016 MBP came out with 10nm, and updated with 7nm this year. That is easily an 8 Core CPU with much better IPC. Even the 10nm Icelake offered 20% IPC improvement, who knows what Intel Promised for 7nm. So I don't think it really was an overreaching issue. Intel had a 3 years delay in delivery, and now looking likely at 4 years as 45W 10nm wont come until 2020.
    - michaelscott 7y ago
      Ives has led the entire design process for Apple's device range, at least until the relatively recent past. Like you I'm not sure to what degree Apple's problems as a whole are attributable to him (certainly not everything of course), but as a designer of his calibre he should be able to make the design decisions that produce a better UX in the product, with or without Jobs. It's why he earns the big bucks. With that in mind, I'd say the issues in Apple's recent range (of a design nature) can be attributed to him. He's taken minimalism past its extreme in recent years, getting rid of things that are part of the device's essential nature in favour of aesthetics and creating something that has great UI but terrible UX.
  - bch 7y ago
    I think Jony Ive lifted an entire industry and perhaps a generation to “good design” (and brought a lot more attention to Dieter Rams[0][1][2]). That we’re here talking about it (for the 3rd(?) time on HN front page) is a testament to that. That said, I think humans got lost in the process, at least occasionally, but not just recently. I don’t recall which models, but sometime the MacBooks adopted really sharp edges on the bottom slab - I found it uncomfortable to sit at (did my piano teacher have input, as a final “keep your wrists up!” order?). Or the orientationally challenged hockey-puck mouse[3]... Compare with the (not problem-free, mind) Thinkpad, which may seem more designed and exciting when you see it’s got a singular inspiration that they seem to have honoured for years[4] (how brave is that, to not change?). I wonder if Apple didn’t feel self-imposed pressure to keep asserting its design dominance, and therefore look for ways to change. We’re all just armchair quarterbacks here though. in the end I think Jony Ive did more good than harm. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dieter_Rams https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dieter_Rams [1] https://www.apartmenttherapy.com/apple-design-doesnt-fall-far-from-brauns-tree-176668 https://www.apartmenttherapy.com/apple-design-doesnt-fall-fa... [2] https://youtu.be/YdVG4LcoY4Y https://youtu.be/YdVG4LcoY4Y [3] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apple_USB_Mouse https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apple_USB_Mouse [4] http://blog.lenovo.com/en/blog/the-japanese-essence-in-thinkpad-bento-boxes http://blog.lenovo.com/en/blog/the-japanese-essence-in-think...
    - sundvor 7y ago
      Thanks for #4, that was a great read. I'm still on my 2012 X1 Carbon and it's surprising how not dated it looks. I'll replace it with another when it breaks, but hoping it'll last until AMD gets properly into the laptop game.
      - jorvi 7y ago
        Beauty really is in the eye of the beholder, I guess. To me, pretty much any modern Thinkpad[0] looks like 90s laptops[1] made out of crappy, flexing plastic whereas something as sleek as a MacBook Air[2] from the same year looks positively futuristic. If (when?) I jump ship I'll either get an XPS 13 or a T4XXs, and the only reason I'm undecided is because of Thinkpads their design, especially the gratuitous logo-ing. [0] https://cnet3.cbsistatic.com/img/rR1UdxX-DdlR2hDEoq3jjC30Nho=/470x376/2012/08/07/5fceb624-bb76-11e2-8a8e-0291187978f3/ThinkPad_X1_Carbon_35299011_05.jpg https://cnet3.cbsistatic.com/img/rR1UdxX-DdlR2hDEoq3jjC30Nho... [1] https://i.ibb.co/Krb07X4/8-C061277-2-A27-4204-BFAE-03-CFDEFD4-B61.jpg https://i.ibb.co/Krb07X4/8-C061277-2-A27-4204-BFAE-03-CFDEFD... [2] https://tweakers.net/i/4R_rvojQOTIskfm9fHVoeguxcPE=/1280x/filters:strip_icc()/v/2/0/2015384/3304874.jpg?f=imagegallery https://tweakers.net/i/4R_rvojQOTIskfm9fHVoeguxcPE=/1280x/fi...
  - skohan 7y ago
    There are a couple of failures (trashcan mac for example, Macbook Pro butterfly keyboard to a degree) but it is hard to argue that Apple's product designs over the last decade haven't been a massive success in general. Sure you can point out gripes (the touch bar, lack of ports, no headphone jack etc.) but in almost every product category there are at most a couple other products which can compete in terms of build quality, aesthetics, and functionality. And people have certainly bought a lot of units of most of these products, so it's hard to classify them as "failures" by any objective metric. If anything I think Apple has such a strong reputation for having categorically the "best designs" that they can't help falling short of expectations, and there's a whole category of journalism dedicated to catastrophizing every perceived flaw. In other words they're not perfect but they're undeny

Did he actually take part in the engineering?

by __m 7y ago

Did he actually take part in the engineering?

bch 7y ago

Successful industrial design must necessarily be engineer-able or its just wishful thinking, no?

tempguy9999 7y ago
Do you consider Ive's later designs as 'successful'? I don't know as I don't use apple but I heard of lot of grumbling off of those that do.
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
- TheOtherHobbes 7y ago
  Industrial design includes materials science and process design as well as aesthetics. In fact the aesthetics are the easy part. Ive has always talked about materials and processes in interviews and videos, so it's unlikely his sole contribution has been doodling rounded rectangles on napkins. The question is the extent to which Apple's recent missteps are his fault. Jobs seems to have had veto power over bad or self-indulgent design. Cook isn't aesthetically sophisticated enough to do that with any flair. That leaves complicated collective politics in charge of the design process. Promoting Ive out of the company may or may not improve that - time will tell.
  - thom 7y ago
    I bought plenty of Apple hardware with fundamental thermal issues or other problems caused by overreaching design during Jobs' reign, so I'm not sure how much he exercised this veto.
    - ksec 7y ago
      Again, purely from the thinness issue, ( and not the keyboard ) The current 2016 MBP design were likely done in 2014/2015, with Intel's roadmap pointing to 10nm in 2016 and 7nm in 2019. Intel over promised on 10nm super low power capability ( Well may be that is still true, but no one know it couldn't yield ), and you would naturally expect 7nm with EUV to be better. The 2016 MBP design had 45W TDP for CPU in mind, Imagine the 2016 MBP came out with 10nm, and updated with 7nm this year. That is easily an 8 Core CPU with much better IPC. Even the 10nm Icelake offered 20% IPC improvement, who knows what Intel Promised for 7nm. So I don't think it really was an overreaching issue. Intel had a 3 years delay in delivery, and now looking likely at 4 years as 45W 10nm wont come until 2020.
  - michaelscott 7y ago
    Ives has led the entire design process for Apple's device range, at least until the relatively recent past. Like you I'm not sure to what degree Apple's problems as a whole are attributable to him (certainly not everything of course), but as a designer of his calibre he should be able to make the design decisions that produce a better UX in the product, with or without Jobs. It's why he earns the big bucks. With that in mind, I'd say the issues in Apple's recent range (of a design nature) can be attributed to him. He's taken minimalism past its extreme in recent years, getting rid of things that are part of the device's essential nature in favour of aesthetics and creating something that has great UI but terrible UX.
- bch 7y ago
  I think Jony Ive lifted an entire industry and perhaps a generation to “good design” (and brought a lot more attention to Dieter Rams[0][1][2]). That we’re here talking about it (for the 3rd(?) time on HN front page) is a testament to that. That said, I think humans got lost in the process, at least occasionally, but not just recently. I don’t recall which models, but sometime the MacBooks adopted really sharp edges on the bottom slab - I found it uncomfortable to sit at (did my piano teacher have input, as a final “keep your wrists up!” order?). Or the orientationally challenged hockey-puck mouse[3]... Compare with the (not problem-free, mind) Thinkpad, which may seem more designed and exciting when you see it’s got a singular inspiration that they seem to have honoured for years[4] (how brave is that, to not change?). I wonder if Apple didn’t feel self-imposed pressure to keep asserting its design dominance, and therefore look for ways to change. We’re all just armchair quarterbacks here though. in the end I think Jony Ive did more good than harm. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dieter_Rams https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dieter_Rams [1] https://www.apartmenttherapy.com/apple-design-doesnt-fall-far-from-brauns-tree-176668 https://www.apartmenttherapy.com/apple-design-doesnt-fall-fa... [2] https://youtu.be/YdVG4LcoY4Y https://youtu.be/YdVG4LcoY4Y [3] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apple_USB_Mouse https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apple_USB_Mouse [4] http://blog.lenovo.com/en/blog/the-japanese-essence-in-thinkpad-bento-boxes http://blog.lenovo.com/en/blog/the-japanese-essence-in-think...
  - sundvor 7y ago
    Thanks for #4, that was a great read. I'm still on my 2012 X1 Carbon and it's surprising how not dated it looks. I'll replace it with another when it breaks, but hoping it'll last until AMD gets properly into the laptop game.
    - jorvi 7y ago
      Beauty really is in the eye of the beholder, I guess. To me, pretty much any modern Thinkpad[0] looks like 90s laptops[1] made out of crappy, flexing plastic whereas something as sleek as a MacBook Air[2] from the same year looks positively futuristic. If (when?) I jump ship I'll either get an XPS 13 or a T4XXs, and the only reason I'm undecided is because of Thinkpads their design, especially the gratuitous logo-ing. [0] https://cnet3.cbsistatic.com/img/rR1UdxX-DdlR2hDEoq3jjC30Nho=/470x376/2012/08/07/5fceb624-bb76-11e2-8a8e-0291187978f3/ThinkPad_X1_Carbon_35299011_05.jpg https://cnet3.cbsistatic.com/img/rR1UdxX-DdlR2hDEoq3jjC30Nho... [1] https://i.ibb.co/Krb07X4/8-C061277-2-A27-4204-BFAE-03-CFDEFD4-B61.jpg https://i.ibb.co/Krb07X4/8-C061277-2-A27-4204-BFAE-03-CFDEFD... [2] https://tweakers.net/i/4R_rvojQOTIskfm9fHVoeguxcPE=/1280x/filters:strip_icc()/v/2/0/2015384/3304874.jpg?f=imagegallery https://tweakers.net/i/4R_rvojQOTIskfm9fHVoeguxcPE=/1280x/fi...
- skohan 7y ago
  There are a couple of failures (trashcan mac for example, Macbook Pro butterfly keyboard to a degree) but it is hard to argue that Apple's product designs over the last decade haven't been a massive success in general. Sure you can point out gripes (the touch bar, lack of ports, no headphone jack etc.) but in almost every product category there are at most a couple other products which can compete in terms of build quality, aesthetics, and functionality. And people have certainly bought a lot of units of most of these products, so it's hard to classify them as "failures" by any objective metric. If anything I think Apple has such a strong reputation for having categorically the "best designs" that they can't help falling short of expectations, and there's a whole category of journalism dedicated to catastrophizing every perceived flaw. In other words they're not perfect but they're undeny