8 ms·

I have a feeling that Ive went off the deep end with his obsession with thinness and it reached a point with the MBP keyboards where Apple couldn't turn a blind

by mantap 7y ago

I have a feeling that Ive went off the deep end with his obsession with thinness and it reached a point with the MBP keyboards where Apple couldn't turn a blind eye anymore. Similar to Scott Forstall being forced out over the Apple Maps disaster. If there's one thing more important to Apple than Ive, it's the Apple brand and nothing says "premium" like adding a product to a repair program on the day it comes out. I suspect that the knives were out for Ive after that humiliation.

__m 7y ago
Did he actually take part in the engineering?
- bch 7y ago
  Successful industrial design must necessarily be engineer-able or its just wishful thinking, no?
  - tempguy9999 7y ago
    Do you consider Ive's later designs as 'successful'? I don't know as I don't use apple but I heard of lot of grumbling off of those that do.
    - deleted 7y ago
      [deleted]
    - TheOtherHobbes 7y ago
      Industrial design includes materials science and process design as well as aesthetics. In fact the aesthetics are the easy part. Ive has always talked about materials and processes in interviews and videos, so it's unlikely his sole contribution has been doodling rounded rectangles on napkins. The question is the extent to which Apple's recent missteps are his fault. Jobs seems to have had veto power over bad or self-indulgent design. Cook isn't aesthetically sophisticated enough to do that with any flair. That leaves complicated collective politics in charge of the design process. Promoting Ive out of the company may or may not improve that - time will tell.
      - thom 7y ago
        I bought plenty of Apple hardware with fundamental thermal issues or other problems caused by overreaching design during Jobs' reign, so I'm not sure how much he exercised this veto.
        ksec 7y ago
        Again, purely from the thinness issue, ( and not the keyboard ) The current 2016 MBP design were likely done in 2014/2015, with Intel's roadmap pointing to 10nm in 2016 and 7nm in 2019. Intel over promised on 10nm super low power capability ( Well may be that is still true, but no one know it couldn't yield ), and you would naturally expect 7nm with EUV to be better. The 2016 MBP design had 45W TDP for CPU in mind, Imagine the 2016 MBP came out with 10nm, and updated with 7nm this year. That is easily an 8 Core CPU with much better IPC. Even the 10nm Icelake offered 20% IPC improvement, who knows what Intel Promised for 7nm. So I don't think it really was an overreaching issue. Intel had a 3 years delay in delivery, and now looking likely at 4 years as 45W 10nm wont come until 2020.
      - michaelscott 7y ago
        Ives has led the entire design process for Apple's device range, at least until the relatively recent past. Like you I'm not sure to what degree Apple's problems as a whole are attributable to him (certainly not everything of course), but as a designer of his calibre he should be able to make the design decisions that produce a better UX in the product, with or without Jobs. It's why he earns the big bucks. With that in mind, I'd say the issues in Apple's recent range (of a design nature) can be attributed to him. He's taken minimalism past its extreme in recent years, getting rid of things that are part of the device's essential nature in favour of aesthetics and creating something that has great UI but terrible UX.
    - bch 7y ago
      I think Jony Ive lifted an entire industry and perhaps a generation to “good design” (and brought a lot more attention to Dieter Rams[0][1][2]). That we’re here talking about it (for the 3rd(?) time on HN front page) is a testament to that. That said, I think humans got lost in the process, at least occasionally, but not just recently. I don’t recall which models, but sometime the MacBooks adopted really sharp edges on the bottom slab - I found it uncomfortable to sit at (did my piano teacher have input, as a final “keep your wrists up!” order?). Or the orientationally challenged hockey-puck mouse[3]... Compare with the (not problem-free, mind) Thinkpad, which may seem more designed and exciting when you see it’s got a singular inspiration that they seem to have honoured for years[4] (how brave is that, to not change?). I wonder if Apple didn’t feel self-imposed pressure to keep asserting its design dominance, and therefore look for ways to change. We’re all just armchair quarterbacks here though. in the end I think Jony Ive did more good than harm. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dieter_Rams https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dieter_Rams [1] https://www.apartmenttherapy.com/apple-design-doesnt-fall-far-from-brauns-tree-176668 https://www.apartmenttherapy.com/apple-design-doesnt-fall-fa... [2] https://youtu.be/YdVG4LcoY4Y https://youtu.be/YdVG4LcoY4Y [3] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apple_USB_Mouse https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apple_USB_Mouse [4] http://blog.lenovo.com/en/blog/the-japanese-essence-in-thinkpad-bento-boxes http://blog.lenovo.com/en/blog/the-japanese-essence-in-think...
      - sundvor 7y ago
        Thanks for #4, that was a great read. I'm still on my 2012 X1 Carbon and it's surprising how not dated it looks. I'll replace it with another when it breaks, but hoping it'll last until AMD gets properly into the laptop game.
        jorvi 7y ago
        Beauty really is in the eye of the beholder, I guess. To me, pretty much any modern Thinkpad[0] looks like 90s laptops[1] made out of crappy, flexing plastic whereas something as sleek as a MacBook Air[2] from the same year looks positively futuristic. If (when?) I jump ship I'll either get an XPS 13 or a T4XXs, and the only reason I'm undecided is because of Thinkpads their design, especially the gratuitous logo-ing. [0] https://cnet3.cbsistatic.com/img/rR1UdxX-DdlR2hDEoq3jjC30Nho=/470x376/2012/08/07/5fceb624-bb76-11e2-8a8e-0291187978f3/ThinkPad_X1_Carbon_35299011_05.jpg https://cnet3.cbsistatic.com/img/rR1UdxX-DdlR2hDEoq3jjC30Nho... [1] https://i.ibb.co/Krb07X4/8-C061277-2-A27-4204-BFAE-03-CFDEFD4-B61.jpg https://i.ibb.co/Krb07X4/8-C061277-2-A27-4204-BFAE-03-CFDEFD... [2] https://tweakers.net/i/4R_rvojQOTIskfm9fHVoeguxcPE=/1280x/filters:strip_icc()/v/2/0/2015384/3304874.jpg?f=imagegallery https://tweakers.net/i/4R_rvojQOTIskfm9fHVoeguxcPE=/1280x/fi...
    - skohan 7y ago
      There are a couple of failures (trashcan mac for example, Macbook Pro butterfly keyboard to a degree) but it is hard to argue that Apple's product designs over the last decade haven't been a massive success in general. Sure you can point out gripes (the touch bar, lack of ports, no headphone jack etc.) but in almost every product category there are at most a couple other products which can compete in terms of build quality, aesthetics, and functionality. And people have certainly bought a lot of units of most of these products, so it's hard to classify them as "failures" by any objective metric. If anything I think Apple has such a strong reputation for having categorically the "best designs" that they can't help falling short of expectations, and there's a whole category of journalism dedicated to catastrophizing every perceived flaw. In other words they're not perfect but they're undeny
ocdtrekkie 7y ago
Would Apple fire Ive over a MacBook issue? That's not where the money is by any means, is it? As long as the iPhone is doing well, business is good at Apple.
- mantap 7y ago
  It's his job to supervise the design of all major products. If he can screw up the MacBook then he is not doing his job effectively and he could potentially screw up the iPhone too.
- Wowfunhappy 7y ago
  I don’t blame Ive/Apple too much for the butterfly keyboard issues, at least not per se. It’s hard to predict how a design will hold up after multiple years of use, and the failure rate isn't at world-on-fire levels. However, I absolutely fault Apple for sticking with this keyboard after so many years. I know hardware designs are planned well in advance, but the 12-inch Macbook came out in early 2015. How did they look at the failure rate of that model and decide “yep, we should definitely release a Macbook Pro with this type of keyboard.” And then, why have they stuck with that design for four years and counting? If Apple didn't or doesn't have anything else ready... well, first of all, why did they not have an alternative design ready, especially when they also ran into this problem with the Macbook Pro? But, secondly, Apple could just update the guts of the 2015 MBP, which is what everyone wants them to do anyway. I realize it's misguided to assign feelings to entire corporations, but... Apple just strikes me as so needlessly stubborn sometimes. As if we consumers are small children, and Apple can't go back to the old keyboard lest we be rewarded for whining.
  - sangnoir 7y ago
    > It’s really hard to predict how a design will hold up after multiple years of use It's really not - predicting lifetime expectancy and failure rates is a discipline of industrial engineering. That is why it's possible to estimate the number of open/close cycles of hinges is possible to estimate with a great degree of accuracy. A company has to master art this for selfish reasons - so that they can minimize repair costs during the warranty period
_hardwaregeek 7y ago
Haha there's been quite a few Apple products that have failed out of the gate. Remember, they released an iPhone that couldn't make calls if you held it wrong and that was when Steve Jobs was still alive. Or what about the Power Mac Cube?
- jxdxbx 7y ago
  They didn't know about those at the time of release; they were mistakes. The recent MacBook Pro got an extended repair program as it was released. Which could be either a way to assure customers, or a recognition of the fact that the kb was still too delicate and they had no choice but to put it out anyway.
- thejohnconway 7y ago
  I own a Cube, it’s 18 years old and still runs. The problem with the Cube was that it cost too much - it was basically a low-end PowerMac at a high-end PowerMac price. Turns out there wasn’t a market for it. Still the best looking computer ever made in my opinion.
- darkpuma 7y ago
  I really wish I could restore functionality to a MBP by changing the way I hold it, but alas, the situation seems far worse than even antenna-gate.
lttlrck 7y ago
There is also the notch, which is easy to ignore but it feels like a compromise too far, and the camera bump which has somehow survived since the 6.

by mantap 7y ago

__m 7y ago

Did he actually take part in the engineering?

bch 7y ago
Successful industrial design must necessarily be engineer-able or its just wishful thinking, no?
- tempguy9999 7y ago
  Do you consider Ive's later designs as 'successful'? I don't know as I don't use apple but I heard of lot of grumbling off of those that do.
  - deleted 7y ago
    [deleted]
  - TheOtherHobbes 7y ago
    Industrial design includes materials science and process design as well as aesthetics. In fact the aesthetics are the easy part. Ive has always talked about materials and processes in interviews and videos, so it's unlikely his sole contribution has been doodling rounded rectangles on napkins. The question is the extent to which Apple's recent missteps are his fault. Jobs seems to have had veto power over bad or self-indulgent design. Cook isn't aesthetically sophisticated enough to do that with any flair. That leaves complicated collective politics in charge of the design process. Promoting Ive out of the company may or may not improve that - time will tell.
    - thom 7y ago
      I bought plenty of Apple hardware with fundamental thermal issues or other problems caused by overreaching design during Jobs' reign, so I'm not sure how much he exercised this veto.
      - ksec 7y ago
        Again, purely from the thinness issue, ( and not the keyboard ) The current 2016 MBP design were likely done in 2014/2015, with Intel's roadmap pointing to 10nm in 2016 and 7nm in 2019. Intel over promised on 10nm super low power capability ( Well may be that is still true, but no one know it couldn't yield ), and you would naturally expect 7nm with EUV to be better. The 2016 MBP design had 45W TDP for CPU in mind, Imagine the 2016 MBP came out with 10nm, and updated with 7nm this year. That is easily an 8 Core CPU with much better IPC. Even the 10nm Icelake offered 20% IPC improvement, who knows what Intel Promised for 7nm. So I don't think it really was an overreaching issue. Intel had a 3 years delay in delivery, and now looking likely at 4 years as 45W 10nm wont come until 2020.
    - michaelscott 7y ago
      Ives has led the entire design process for Apple's device range, at least until the relatively recent past. Like you I'm not sure to what degree Apple's problems as a whole are attributable to him (certainly not everything of course), but as a designer of his calibre he should be able to make the design decisions that produce a better UX in the product, with or without Jobs. It's why he earns the big bucks. With that in mind, I'd say the issues in Apple's recent range (of a design nature) can be attributed to him. He's taken minimalism past its extreme in recent years, getting rid of things that are part of the device's essential nature in favour of aesthetics and creating something that has great UI but terrible UX.
  - bch 7y ago
    I think Jony Ive lifted an entire industry and perhaps a generation to “good design” (and brought a lot more attention to Dieter Rams[0][1][2]). That we’re here talking about it (for the 3rd(?) time on HN front page) is a testament to that. That said, I think humans got lost in the process, at least occasionally, but not just recently. I don’t recall which models, but sometime the MacBooks adopted really sharp edges on the bottom slab - I found it uncomfortable to sit at (did my piano teacher have input, as a final “keep your wrists up!” order?). Or the orientationally challenged hockey-puck mouse[3]... Compare with the (not problem-free, mind) Thinkpad, which may seem more designed and exciting when you see it’s got a singular inspiration that they seem to have honoured for years[4] (how brave is that, to not change?). I wonder if Apple didn’t feel self-imposed pressure to keep asserting its design dominance, and therefore look for ways to change. We’re all just armchair quarterbacks here though. in the end I think Jony Ive did more good than harm. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dieter_Rams https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dieter_Rams [1] https://www.apartmenttherapy.com/apple-design-doesnt-fall-far-from-brauns-tree-176668 https://www.apartmenttherapy.com/apple-design-doesnt-fall-fa... [2] https://youtu.be/YdVG4LcoY4Y https://youtu.be/YdVG4LcoY4Y [3] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apple_USB_Mouse https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apple_USB_Mouse [4] http://blog.lenovo.com/en/blog/the-japanese-essence-in-thinkpad-bento-boxes http://blog.lenovo.com/en/blog/the-japanese-essence-in-think...
    - sundvor 7y ago
      Thanks for #4, that was a great read. I'm still on my 2012 X1 Carbon and it's surprising how not dated it looks. I'll replace it with another when it breaks, but hoping it'll last until AMD gets properly into the laptop game.
      - jorvi 7y ago
        Beauty really is in the eye of the beholder, I guess. To me, pretty much any modern Thinkpad[0] looks like 90s laptops[1] made out of crappy, flexing plastic whereas something as sleek as a MacBook Air[2] from the same year looks positively futuristic. If (when?) I jump ship I'll either get an XPS 13 or a T4XXs, and the only reason I'm undecided is because of Thinkpads their design, especially the gratuitous logo-ing. [0] https://cnet3.cbsistatic.com/img/rR1UdxX-DdlR2hDEoq3jjC30Nho=/470x376/2012/08/07/5fceb624-bb76-11e2-8a8e-0291187978f3/ThinkPad_X1_Carbon_35299011_05.jpg https://cnet3.cbsistatic.com/img/rR1UdxX-DdlR2hDEoq3jjC30Nho... [1] https://i.ibb.co/Krb07X4/8-C061277-2-A27-4204-BFAE-03-CFDEFD4-B61.jpg https://i.ibb.co/Krb07X4/8-C061277-2-A27-4204-BFAE-03-CFDEFD... [2] https://tweakers.net/i/4R_rvojQOTIskfm9fHVoeguxcPE=/1280x/filters:strip_icc()/v/2/0/2015384/3304874.jpg?f=imagegallery https://tweakers.net/i/4R_rvojQOTIskfm9fHVoeguxcPE=/1280x/fi...
  - skohan 7y ago
    There are a couple of failures (trashcan mac for example, Macbook Pro butterfly keyboard to a degree) but it is hard to argue that Apple's product designs over the last decade haven't been a massive success in general. Sure you can point out gripes (the touch bar, lack of ports, no headphone jack etc.) but in almost every product category there are at most a couple other products which can compete in terms of build quality, aesthetics, and functionality. And people have certainly bought a lot of units of most of these products, so it's hard to classify them as "failures" by any objective metric. If anything I think Apple has such a strong reputation for having categorically the "best designs" that they can't help falling short of expectations, and there's a whole category of journalism dedicated to catastrophizing every perceived flaw. In other words they're not perfect but they're undeny

ocdtrekkie 7y ago

Would Apple fire Ive over a MacBook issue? That's not where the money is by any means, is it? As long as the iPhone is doing well, business is good at Apple.

mantap 7y ago
It's his job to supervise the design of all major products. If he can screw up the MacBook then he is not doing his job effectively and he could potentially screw up the iPhone too.
Wowfunhappy 7y ago
I don’t blame Ive/Apple too much for the butterfly keyboard issues, at least not per se. It’s hard to predict how a design will hold up after multiple years of use, and the failure rate isn't at world-on-fire levels. However, I absolutely fault Apple for sticking with this keyboard after so many years. I know hardware designs are planned well in advance, but the 12-inch Macbook came out in early 2015. How did they look at the failure rate of that model and decide “yep, we should definitely release a Macbook Pro with this type of keyboard.” And then, why have they stuck with that design for four years and counting? If Apple didn't or doesn't have anything else ready... well, first of all, why did they not have an alternative design ready, especially when they also ran into this problem with the Macbook Pro? But, secondly, Apple could just update the guts of the 2015 MBP, which is what everyone wants them to do anyway. I realize it's misguided to assign feelings to entire corporations, but... Apple just strikes me as so needlessly stubborn sometimes. As if we consumers are small children, and Apple can't go back to the old keyboard lest we be rewarded for whining.
- sangnoir 7y ago
  > It’s really hard to predict how a design will hold up after multiple years of use It's really not - predicting lifetime expectancy and failure rates is a discipline of industrial engineering. That is why it's possible to estimate the number of open/close cycles of hinges is possible to estimate with a great degree of accuracy. A company has to master art this for selfish reasons - so that they can minimize repair costs during the warranty period

_hardwaregeek 7y ago

Haha there's been quite a few Apple products that have failed out of the gate. Remember, they released an iPhone that couldn't make calls if you held it wrong and that was when Steve Jobs was still alive. Or what about the Power Mac Cube?

jxdxbx 7y ago
They didn't know about those at the time of release; they were mistakes. The recent MacBook Pro got an extended repair program as it was released. Which could be either a way to assure customers, or a recognition of the fact that the kb was still too delicate and they had no choice but to put it out anyway.
thejohnconway 7y ago
I own a Cube, it’s 18 years old and still runs. The problem with the Cube was that it cost too much - it was basically a low-end PowerMac at a high-end PowerMac price. Turns out there wasn’t a market for it. Still the best looking computer ever made in my opinion.
darkpuma 7y ago
I really wish I could restore functionality to a MBP by changing the way I hold it, but alas, the situation seems far worse than even antenna-gate.

lttlrck 7y ago

There is also the notch, which is easy to ignore but it feels like a compromise too far, and the camera bump which has somehow survived since the 6.