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I know that this comment section isn't supposed to be about the church itself, but I can't help but be baffled by the way people are able to separate analyzing

I know that this comment section isn't supposed to be about the church itself, but I can't help but be baffled by the way people are able to separate analyzing SEO optimization from the fact that the church itself is a fundamentally terrible organization. The church is full of racist scripture, institutionalized sexism, and dangerous sexual repression; and has been a major proponent of denying rights to gays. As long as they continue to have such regressive and backward policies, I don't care how good their SEO is. Again, it's not that I doubt their SEO prowess, but how are people able to separate what an evil organization the LDS is from their SEO practises? I don't want to side-track this thread too much, but I'm genuinely curious about the way people are coming at this.

bry 16y ago
Stay on topic and take your trolling elsewhere
- grantheaslip 16y ago
  Comment threads on HN aren't always about exactly what the article was about. I tend to see the article as a conversation starter, not a rigid, immutable topic. Sure, some people might disagree with what I wrote, but I don't think expressing a thought I had while reading the comments that isn't precisely about the article counts as trolling. Your opinion may differ.
  - bry 16y ago
    No doubt. That's the whole point of HN: Intelligent discussion. Your comments, however, are SO off-topic (SEO and how an organization like theirs has done so well at it) that it comes across as trolling.
  - benatkin 16y ago
    Please don't use HN the way you like to see it used. Please follow the guidelines instead. http://ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html http://ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html The first two words of the "In Comments" section covers this thread.
    - bry 16y ago
      Good point. Also, "Please avoid introducing classic flamewar topics unless you have something genuinely new to say about them." (e.g. religion)
    - grantheaslip 16y ago
      On the same line: "Don't say things you wouldn't say in a face to face conversation." I might not word it quite as nicely, but this is stuff that I would say face-to-face. I'm not really an abrasive person when it comes to most topics, but there are certain things which I have absolutely no patience for, and the LDS is one of them. Any group which sees gays, blacks, and women as fundamentally inferior loses its case for respect in my mind. Civility has its limits, and doesn't mean that we're never allowed to express negative opinions (sometimes using strong language) toward anything.
      - nlco 16y ago
        "Any group which sees gays, blacks, and women as fundamentally inferior loses its case for respect in my mind." It's a good thing the LDS don't believe that. They have actively come out to defend against gay harassment. The injustice to blacks was fixed back when slavery was abolished. Men are taught to cherish and respect women, not that they are inferior. Stop your trolling.
        grantheaslip 16y ago
        As far as I'm concerned, in any country with a separation of church and state, any group that opposes the ability of gays to marry is no friend of the gay community. They may have made some token gestures, but that doesn't change their core thoughts on gays, which is that the way they are is unnatural, and must be fixed. As long as they see being gay as a disease, and not a natural tendency, they're homophobic. Their scripture is still full of outright, undeniable racism, and they consider the Book of Mormon to be the word of God. That's all the proof I need. They may have eased back on public racism, but for them to disavow their religion's racism would be to disavow their church entirely. Mormon men may be taught to respect women, but women are taught that they should more-or-less stay at home and make babies, and for most of the community, if a women gets past her early twenties and isn't a housewife, it's seen as a failure. I consider that sexism.
MartinCron 16y ago
I don't necessarily think you're trolling, but I totally understand why you're being downvoted. Being able to compartmentalize and analyze different facets of something is (I think) an important intellectual tool. Example: I can enjoy Richard Wagner's music even though he was a demonstrably terrible person. I'm not an LDS, and I don't like some of the things that the church does, but I can still appreciate the things they do well.
- grantheaslip 16y ago
  I definitely see what you're saying, and that's a very good analogy. I guess the difference for me is that Wagner's music and anti-semitism were two mostly separate things -- his music wasn't being used to promote his prejudices. On the other hand, the LDS's SEO, by its very purpose, is promoting their ideology. I just find this casual discussion about the self-promotion of a group which at its very core believes that friends of mine are inferior, sinful, damaged goods because of the way that they were born a bit upsetting. Even if SEO practise is a separate topic from their scripture, I think that this kind of discussion attributes to them an undeserved level of legitimacy.
  - anamax 16y ago
    > I guess the difference for me is that Wagner's music and anti-semitism were two mostly separate things -- his music wasn't being used to promote his prejudices. Actually, Wagner's music was used to promote his prejudices, however Wagner himself didn't have much of a role in said promotion (as he was dead long before the 1930s).
  - phuff 16y ago
    Hey, grantheaslip, I know this is offtopic, but I'm LDS and just fwiw, we aren't "a group which at its very core believes that friends of mine are inferior, sinful, damaged goods because of the way that they were born." In fact, the LDS church doesn't think anybody is damaged goods, gay, straight or otherwise. I have a few really good friends who are gay and LDS and would take issue with that statement, too. That doesn't mean that we see things the same way you do, but we wouldn't call anybody damaged goods. People are just too good and precious to be thought of that way.

bry 16y ago

Stay on topic and take your trolling elsewhere

grantheaslip 16y ago
Comment threads on HN aren't always about exactly what the article was about. I tend to see the article as a conversation starter, not a rigid, immutable topic. Sure, some people might disagree with what I wrote, but I don't think expressing a thought I had while reading the comments that isn't precisely about the article counts as trolling. Your opinion may differ.
- bry 16y ago
  No doubt. That's the whole point of HN: Intelligent discussion. Your comments, however, are SO off-topic (SEO and how an organization like theirs has done so well at it) that it comes across as trolling.
- benatkin 16y ago
  Please don't use HN the way you like to see it used. Please follow the guidelines instead. http://ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html http://ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html The first two words of the "In Comments" section covers this thread.
  - bry 16y ago
    Good point. Also, "Please avoid introducing classic flamewar topics unless you have something genuinely new to say about them." (e.g. religion)
  - grantheaslip 16y ago
    On the same line: "Don't say things you wouldn't say in a face to face conversation." I might not word it quite as nicely, but this is stuff that I would say face-to-face. I'm not really an abrasive person when it comes to most topics, but there are certain things which I have absolutely no patience for, and the LDS is one of them. Any group which sees gays, blacks, and women as fundamentally inferior loses its case for respect in my mind. Civility has its limits, and doesn't mean that we're never allowed to express negative opinions (sometimes using strong language) toward anything.
    - nlco 16y ago
      "Any group which sees gays, blacks, and women as fundamentally inferior loses its case for respect in my mind." It's a good thing the LDS don't believe that. They have actively come out to defend against gay harassment. The injustice to blacks was fixed back when slavery was abolished. Men are taught to cherish and respect women, not that they are inferior. Stop your trolling.
      - grantheaslip 16y ago
        As far as I'm concerned, in any country with a separation of church and state, any group that opposes the ability of gays to marry is no friend of the gay community. They may have made some token gestures, but that doesn't change their core thoughts on gays, which is that the way they are is unnatural, and must be fixed. As long as they see being gay as a disease, and not a natural tendency, they're homophobic. Their scripture is still full of outright, undeniable racism, and they consider the Book of Mormon to be the word of God. That's all the proof I need. They may have eased back on public racism, but for them to disavow their religion's racism would be to disavow their church entirely. Mormon men may be taught to respect women, but women are taught that they should more-or-less stay at home and make babies, and for most of the community, if a women gets past her early twenties and isn't a housewife, it's seen as a failure. I consider that sexism.

MartinCron 16y ago

I don't necessarily think you're trolling, but I totally understand why you're being downvoted. Being able to compartmentalize and analyze different facets of something is (I think) an important intellectual tool. Example: I can enjoy Richard Wagner's music even though he was a demonstrably terrible person. I'm not an LDS, and I don't like some of the things that the church does, but I can still appreciate the things they do well.

grantheaslip 16y ago
I definitely see what you're saying, and that's a very good analogy. I guess the difference for me is that Wagner's music and anti-semitism were two mostly separate things -- his music wasn't being used to promote his prejudices. On the other hand, the LDS's SEO, by its very purpose, is promoting their ideology. I just find this casual discussion about the self-promotion of a group which at its very core believes that friends of mine are inferior, sinful, damaged goods because of the way that they were born a bit upsetting. Even if SEO practise is a separate topic from their scripture, I think that this kind of discussion attributes to them an undeserved level of legitimacy.
- anamax 16y ago
  > I guess the difference for me is that Wagner's music and anti-semitism were two mostly separate things -- his music wasn't being used to promote his prejudices. Actually, Wagner's music was used to promote his prejudices, however Wagner himself didn't have much of a role in said promotion (as he was dead long before the 1930s).
- phuff 16y ago
  Hey, grantheaslip, I know this is offtopic, but I'm LDS and just fwiw, we aren't "a group which at its very core believes that friends of mine are inferior, sinful, damaged goods because of the way that they were born." In fact, the LDS church doesn't think anybody is damaged goods, gay, straight or otherwise. I have a few really good friends who are gay and LDS and would take issue with that statement, too. That doesn't mean that we see things the same way you do, but we wouldn't call anybody damaged goods. People are just too good and precious to be thought of that way.