5 ms·

I totally agree with the message underlying what you're saying but specifically in sports, I think a really interesting thing is that this only applies once you

I totally agree with the message underlying what you're saying but specifically in sports, I think a really interesting thing is that this only applies once you're at the very top level. Below that, I think being as boring and consistent as possible is actually the key to being an above-average player, paradoxically. It's the same percentages at work - for averagely talented players, those risky plays don't succeed 7% of the time, more like 1% (for argument's sake, obviously made up numbers) so it's actually a better strategy to do the boring thing which might succeed say 5% of the time, consistently. Still low, but better on average than most people who do try the risky, extremely unlikely to work, plays more frequently.

Waterluvian 7y ago
You might be right. But this is especially interesting to me. I was that consistent mediocre player in the 10+ years I played hockey. I was always so nervous and afraid of making mistakes. Absolutely terrified. Mainly of letting down the "good players" So I just played this safe game and got maybe 3 points a season. Then one season I was put onto a team with three Allstars who didn't want to play A or AAA that year. They got onto the same team because all three of their dads were the coaches for the team. They encouraged more growth out of me than any coach or teacher ever has before. Everyone was so supportive and after a few months I was genuinely convinced that nobody was going to get upset if I made mistakes. So I started putting myself out there. I started trying to position myself usefully. And the others actually stated passing me the puck. And every time I messed up someone would give me some form of verbal or nonverbal reassurance. My confidence exploded. We won everything that year and went on to the All-Ontario tournament. I was 16 and that was maybe one of the best weekends of my life. I still vividly remember this almost two-line pass that I received and dodged around the defense. Almost a breakaway but the goalie scrambled out and dove on the puck. Coach said, "holy shit. Where was that all season?!" A formative memory I will never forget. And then the next season. 16-17 year Olds. Lots of hormones. A real bunch of assholes. They reinforced all my fears about making mistakes. That was the last year I ever played hockey.
- davnicwil 7y ago
  I played team sports all through my childhood and teens (rugby, soccer and field hockey) and totally empathise with what you're saying. Especially at that age, the social pressure of making a mistake is intense, and kids especially are brutal about letting you know you've 'let the team down' or whatever. One of the most vivid memories I have to this day from childhood is scoring an own goal for my school soccer team. Think I literally cried. Hard to imagine it mattering that much now, but I think as a child/teen your peers' opinions and judgement is everything. I did briefly get back into team sports playing soccer at University, and while better because I was older, I still just found the pressure of making mistakes with a team made of people I wasn't really close friends with kind of spoiled the enjoyment ultimately. In adulthood I started focusing on squash, and enjoy it so much more in no small part because it's an individual sport and it totally flips the mistakes situation around. Yes, mistakes are mega frustrating, but they happen and they're lessons to be learned from to improve - all embarrassment and social pressure of letting others down is gone.
  - nindalf 7y ago
    > I think as a child/teen your peers' opinions and judgement is everything I don't think this stops when we grow older. We're primates who live in groups. The approval of our group is vital for our mental well-being. It's tempting to believe that we've outgrown this mentality because we've evolved past it, or we've gathered enough wisdom to be unaffected by it ... but I don't think we have. Ostracism works just as well on adults as it does on children.
dlphn___xyz 7y ago
an employees value is being predictable
- Waterluvian 7y ago
  That sounds like one of those reductionist things believed by a Silicon Valleyist who doesn't know there's a world outside tech. Or maybe a project manager who depends on reducing everything to point scores. There are many many roles where you need to be able to make mistakes. Predictability is
  - dlphn___xyz 7y ago
    in my experience companies are very risk adverse - you're better off doing the bare minimum because any mistakes will ruin your career trajectory
- closeparen 7y ago
  When we need automatons to do a job, we write ourselves some automatons.
thanhhaimai 7y ago
For most of the sports, there are usually two versions: amateur and professional. The amateur games are the ones where outcomes are decided by who makes more mistakes. In professional games, it tends to be about who can execute more brilliant moves while still minimizing mistakes. This applies for more than just sports, for example, programming. For the majority of people, it's better to focus on consistency, readability, and idiomatic code, rather than clever optimization and heavy hand solutions that allow bugs to creep in.
ilammy 7y ago
I've seen a nice paper on this subject discussed on HN once: 'The Mundanity of Excellence' [1]. It's about how olympic-level swimmers end up at the olympic level. The point is exactly the one you're making: they do so by consistently doing the most boring things. [1]: https://academics.hamilton.edu/documents/themundanityofexcellence.pdf https://academics.hamilton.edu/documents/themundanityofexcel...

Waterluvian 7y ago

You might be right. But this is especially interesting to me. I was that consistent mediocre player in the 10+ years I played hockey. I was always so nervous and afraid of making mistakes. Absolutely terrified. Mainly of letting down the "good players" So I just played this safe game and got maybe 3 points a season. Then one season I was put onto a team with three Allstars who didn't want to play A or AAA that year. They got onto the same team because all three of their dads were the coaches for the team. They encouraged more growth out of me than any coach or teacher ever has before. Everyone was so supportive and after a few months I was genuinely convinced that nobody was going to get upset if I made mistakes. So I started putting myself out there. I started trying to position myself usefully. And the others actually stated passing me the puck. And every time I messed up someone would give me some form of verbal or nonverbal reassurance. My confidence exploded. We won everything that year and went on to the All-Ontario tournament. I was 16 and that was maybe one of the best weekends of my life. I still vividly remember this almost two-line pass that I received and dodged around the defense. Almost a breakaway but the goalie scrambled out and dove on the puck. Coach said, "holy shit. Where was that all season?!" A formative memory I will never forget. And then the next season. 16-17 year Olds. Lots of hormones. A real bunch of assholes. They reinforced all my fears about making mistakes. That was the last year I ever played hockey.

davnicwil 7y ago
I played team sports all through my childhood and teens (rugby, soccer and field hockey) and totally empathise with what you're saying. Especially at that age, the social pressure of making a mistake is intense, and kids especially are brutal about letting you know you've 'let the team down' or whatever. One of the most vivid memories I have to this day from childhood is scoring an own goal for my school soccer team. Think I literally cried. Hard to imagine it mattering that much now, but I think as a child/teen your peers' opinions and judgement is everything. I did briefly get back into team sports playing soccer at University, and while better because I was older, I still just found the pressure of making mistakes with a team made of people I wasn't really close friends with kind of spoiled the enjoyment ultimately. In adulthood I started focusing on squash, and enjoy it so much more in no small part because it's an individual sport and it totally flips the mistakes situation around. Yes, mistakes are mega frustrating, but they happen and they're lessons to be learned from to improve - all embarrassment and social pressure of letting others down is gone.
- nindalf 7y ago
  > I think as a child/teen your peers' opinions and judgement is everything I don't think this stops when we grow older. We're primates who live in groups. The approval of our group is vital for our mental well-being. It's tempting to believe that we've outgrown this mentality because we've evolved past it, or we've gathered enough wisdom to be unaffected by it ... but I don't think we have. Ostracism works just as well on adults as it does on children.

dlphn___xyz 7y ago

an employees value is being predictable

Waterluvian 7y ago
That sounds like one of those reductionist things believed by a Silicon Valleyist who doesn't know there's a world outside tech. Or maybe a project manager who depends on reducing everything to point scores. There are many many roles where you need to be able to make mistakes. Predictability is
- dlphn___xyz 7y ago
  in my experience companies are very risk adverse - you're better off doing the bare minimum because any mistakes will ruin your career trajectory
closeparen 7y ago
When we need automatons to do a job, we write ourselves some automatons.

thanhhaimai 7y ago

For most of the sports, there are usually two versions: amateur and professional. The amateur games are the ones where outcomes are decided by who makes more mistakes. In professional games, it tends to be about who can execute more brilliant moves while still minimizing mistakes. This applies for more than just sports, for example, programming. For the majority of people, it's better to focus on consistency, readability, and idiomatic code, rather than clever optimization and heavy hand solutions that allow bugs to creep in.

ilammy 7y ago

I've seen a nice paper on this subject discussed on HN once: 'The Mundanity of Excellence' [1]. It's about how olympic-level swimmers end up at the olympic level. The point is exactly the one you're making: they do so by consistently doing the most boring things. [1]: https://academics.hamilton.edu/documents/themundanityofexcellence.pdf https://academics.hamilton.edu/documents/themundanityofexcel...