6 ms·

Quite clearly, Fram was told to stay away from a user named LauraHale (in March 2019) - to avoid any interactions with her or her content completely. Essentiall

Quite clearly, Fram was told to stay away from a user named LauraHale (in March 2019) - to avoid any interactions with her or her content completely. Essentially, it's a restraining order. So what did he do for him to get a Wikipedia "restraining order" against him? AND... he broke that restraining order by mentioning her in some comments. I mean, this isn't some statement about "banning all assholes" so much as action against a single person who refused to stop harassing another person.

microcolonel 7y ago
> a single person who refused to stop harassing another person Fram wasn't out harassing anyone.
- nsajko 7y ago
  Yeah, the accusation of harrassment is unfounded. Edit: To whoever downvoted me: The WMF T&S team (which banned Fram) did not say what was Fram banned for, neither was there any actions against him before the Arbitration Committee, there were not even any public complaints. What is happening to Fram on this thread is unjustified lynching.
  - geofft 7y ago
    I don't think "lynching" is a reasonable term here to describe being banned for a year from editing a single Wikipedia instance, even if the thread were not mostly leaning in favor of Fram as it is. TFA makes it clear that they didn't say what he was banned for and that there's no public info.
    - nsajko 7y ago
      I meant this very thread on HN. Here he is being "lynched" by people who do not know anything about the case calling him a harasser.
      - unreal37 7y ago
        He was told (in 2017 and 2019) to completely avoid interacting with her and her content. The notice Fram posted himself was quite clear - don't report her content, don't edit her content, don't interact with her in any way. That's quite serious. How does someone get a warning like that from WMF?
        nsajko 7y ago
        Your comment is problematic for responding to because it is not clear if it is asking a question (and which question) or is it trying to say something between the lines. But I will try anyway: Essentially you are trying to say that Fram is a harasser because he got a warning from T&S. But that is not how T&S works. They (as far as is publicly known) react to any reports of misbehavior with (without investigation) trying to deescalate the situation by asking to stop interaction between concerned parties. Usually this only applies to Wikimedia staff, contractors, participants at Wikimedia events, etc. The fact that Fram even got a "warning" from the T&S is quite damning for T&S because they usually do not meddle in such stuff as was happening between him and LauraHale (for the uninitiated, she was writing a lot of, let us say it bluntly, crap articles and edits [0]; and he was, as a good editor, trying to fix those edits repeatedly), because of the implicated power that you can have over the Wikimedia communities by knowing someone on T&S and/or the Board. [0] She was writing duplicate paragraphs and mistranslating from a language she does not speak in an absurd manner. Edit: I deleted unfounded speculation I made against LauraHale. Sorry.
        geofft 7y ago
        > She was writing duplicate paragraphs (maybe to gain a greater edit count?) and mistranslating from a language she does not speak in an absurd manner. This is quite an accusation. Please stop lynching her.
        nsajko 7y ago
        You got a point there, I edited my comment accordingly. And I did not down-vote you, nor would I do it if I could.
    - mcguire 7y ago
      "Fuck ArbCom which doesn't even understand their own messages and again give themselves powers they don't have. First it was deletions, then it was mandatory 2FA, inbetween it is loads of evidence of utter incompetence in many of its members (witness the statement by AGK above, but also some of the comments at e.g. the Rama case request). Just crawl into a corner and shut up until the community asks you to do something within your remit, but don't try to rule enwiki as if you have the right and the competence to do so. Or collectively resign. But don't give us any more of this bullshit. [[User:Fram|Fram]] ([[User talk:Fram|talk]]) 07:39, 4 May 2019 (UTC)" From https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:MobileDiff/895438118 https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:MobileDiff/895438118, linked by "And then a few hours ago, they posted my one year ban, and helpfully gave the actual reason. Which is one edit, this one. That's it." From https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Community_response_to_the_Wikimedia_Foundation%27s_ban_of_Fram https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Community_response..., which is "Fram's response on Commons."
geofft 7y ago
Ah, that makes a lot mote sense, thanks - and I wouldn't describe that as being Wikipedia's Linus. (Linus's known public behavior, at least, does not include singling out an individual for harassment.) But then it re-raises the question of why community governance couldn't handle this, since the worry of the existing community leadership being assholes themselves doesn't apply. Banning users from harassing other users, and enforcing it, seems like a good chunk of what ArbCom already does, no? If WMF wants to take this role, that seems likely beneficial and fine (to me, as a non-Wikipedian observer) but shouldn't they coordinate with ArbCom? (Also, they should say that, because there are now a dozen other theories of what Fram did, as you can see from these comments, the open letter, the BuzzFeed News article, etc. If you punish someone for X and don't say X was the offense, you're wasting an opportunity to dissuade others from doing X.)
- makomk 7y ago
  Very much so. Normally, such a restraining order would be issued through community governance; this one was from the Wikimedia Foundation, which itself was an unusual step. Also, I don't think there's any evidence of Fram breaking it?
adolph 7y ago
Fram has also clashed with LauraHale who is the girlfriend of the WMF chair and has made noises about going to the Trust and Safety people before. No one knows if WMF chair was recused from decision to ban Fram. Pretty much everyone sees an obvious conflict of interest. http://wikirev.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2222&start=10 http://wikirev.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2222&start=10
- growt 7y ago
  And suddenly this sounds like a telenovela.
- makomk 7y ago
  I'm not sure there's any solid evidence that she's the girlfriend of the WMF chair - that mostly seems to be a salacious rumor. However, there does seem to be evidence that the WMF chair and Laura Hale directly worked together over at Wikinews on the same topic area that Laura Hale and Fram ended up in conflict over on Wikipedia (sports in Spain). That seems like a better thing to focus on than juicy gossip.
  - adolph 7y ago
    I have no idea either. Thinking about it though, maybe there is a corollary to Hanlon’s Razor “Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity”: Never attribute to stupidity what is adequately explained by conflict of interest.
  - nsajko 7y ago
    I will not post links for obvious reasons, but it definitely seems like Laura Hale and Maria Sefidari are close, looking at some pictures of them together that are relatively easy to find on the Web.
  - belorn 7y ago
    The only solid evidence is that Fram used the word "fuck", as that was the diff provided to him. Everything else, including the incident with LauraHale or any potential relation between her and WMF is just speculation people are rushing into in order to find an explanation to WMF action. This is why the Open Letter is so elegant written. It does not speculate. It addresses the core issue which is the lack of solid evidence and community process.

microcolonel 7y ago

> a single person who refused to stop harassing another person Fram wasn't out harassing anyone.

nsajko 7y ago
Yeah, the accusation of harrassment is unfounded. Edit: To whoever downvoted me: The WMF T&S team (which banned Fram) did not say what was Fram banned for, neither was there any actions against him before the Arbitration Committee, there were not even any public complaints. What is happening to Fram on this thread is unjustified lynching.
- geofft 7y ago
  I don't think "lynching" is a reasonable term here to describe being banned for a year from editing a single Wikipedia instance, even if the thread were not mostly leaning in favor of Fram as it is. TFA makes it clear that they didn't say what he was banned for and that there's no public info.
  - nsajko 7y ago
    I meant this very thread on HN. Here he is being "lynched" by people who do not know anything about the case calling him a harasser.
    - unreal37 7y ago
      He was told (in 2017 and 2019) to completely avoid interacting with her and her content. The notice Fram posted himself was quite clear - don't report her content, don't edit her content, don't interact with her in any way. That's quite serious. How does someone get a warning like that from WMF?
      - nsajko 7y ago
        Your comment is problematic for responding to because it is not clear if it is asking a question (and which question) or is it trying to say something between the lines. But I will try anyway: Essentially you are trying to say that Fram is a harasser because he got a warning from T&S. But that is not how T&S works. They (as far as is publicly known) react to any reports of misbehavior with (without investigation) trying to deescalate the situation by asking to stop interaction between concerned parties. Usually this only applies to Wikimedia staff, contractors, participants at Wikimedia events, etc. The fact that Fram even got a "warning" from the T&S is quite damning for T&S because they usually do not meddle in such stuff as was happening between him and LauraHale (for the uninitiated, she was writing a lot of, let us say it bluntly, crap articles and edits [0]; and he was, as a good editor, trying to fix those edits repeatedly), because of the implicated power that you can have over the Wikimedia communities by knowing someone on T&S and/or the Board. [0] She was writing duplicate paragraphs and mistranslating from a language she does not speak in an absurd manner. Edit: I deleted unfounded speculation I made against LauraHale. Sorry.
        geofft 7y ago
        > She was writing duplicate paragraphs (maybe to gain a greater edit count?) and mistranslating from a language she does not speak in an absurd manner. This is quite an accusation. Please stop lynching her.
        nsajko 7y ago
        You got a point there, I edited my comment accordingly. And I did not down-vote you, nor would I do it if I could.
  - mcguire 7y ago
    "Fuck ArbCom which doesn't even understand their own messages and again give themselves powers they don't have. First it was deletions, then it was mandatory 2FA, inbetween it is loads of evidence of utter incompetence in many of its members (witness the statement by AGK above, but also some of the comments at e.g. the Rama case request). Just crawl into a corner and shut up until the community asks you to do something within your remit, but don't try to rule enwiki as if you have the right and the competence to do so. Or collectively resign. But don't give us any more of this bullshit. [[User:Fram|Fram]] ([[User talk:Fram|talk]]) 07:39, 4 May 2019 (UTC)" From https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:MobileDiff/895438118 https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:MobileDiff/895438118, linked by "And then a few hours ago, they posted my one year ban, and helpfully gave the actual reason. Which is one edit, this one. That's it." From https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Community_response_to_the_Wikimedia_Foundation%27s_ban_of_Fram https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Community_response..., which is "Fram's response on Commons."

geofft 7y ago

Ah, that makes a lot mote sense, thanks - and I wouldn't describe that as being Wikipedia's Linus. (Linus's known public behavior, at least, does not include singling out an individual for harassment.) But then it re-raises the question of why community governance couldn't handle this, since the worry of the existing community leadership being assholes themselves doesn't apply. Banning users from harassing other users, and enforcing it, seems like a good chunk of what ArbCom already does, no? If WMF wants to take this role, that seems likely beneficial and fine (to me, as a non-Wikipedian observer) but shouldn't they coordinate with ArbCom? (Also, they should say that, because there are now a dozen other theories of what Fram did, as you can see from these comments, the open letter, the BuzzFeed News article, etc. If you punish someone for X and don't say X was the offense, you're wasting an opportunity to dissuade others from doing X.)

makomk 7y ago
Very much so. Normally, such a restraining order would be issued through community governance; this one was from the Wikimedia Foundation, which itself was an unusual step. Also, I don't think there's any evidence of Fram breaking it?

adolph 7y ago

Fram has also clashed with LauraHale who is the girlfriend of the WMF chair and has made noises about going to the Trust and Safety people before. No one knows if WMF chair was recused from decision to ban Fram. Pretty much everyone sees an obvious conflict of interest. http://wikirev.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2222&start=10 http://wikirev.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2222&start=10

growt 7y ago
And suddenly this sounds like a telenovela.
makomk 7y ago
I'm not sure there's any solid evidence that she's the girlfriend of the WMF chair - that mostly seems to be a salacious rumor. However, there does seem to be evidence that the WMF chair and Laura Hale directly worked together over at Wikinews on the same topic area that Laura Hale and Fram ended up in conflict over on Wikipedia (sports in Spain). That seems like a better thing to focus on than juicy gossip.
- adolph 7y ago
  I have no idea either. Thinking about it though, maybe there is a corollary to Hanlon’s Razor “Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity”: Never attribute to stupidity what is adequately explained by conflict of interest.
- nsajko 7y ago
  I will not post links for obvious reasons, but it definitely seems like Laura Hale and Maria Sefidari are close, looking at some pictures of them together that are relatively easy to find on the Web.
- belorn 7y ago
  The only solid evidence is that Fram used the word "fuck", as that was the diff provided to him. Everything else, including the incident with LauraHale or any potential relation between her and WMF is just speculation people are rushing into in order to find an explanation to WMF action. This is why the Open Letter is so elegant written. It does not speculate. It addresses the core issue which is the lack of solid evidence and community process.