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How ironic that the nation that led the world in the frontiers of maths in the 19th century completely missed the boat in the applied math of signals intelligen

How ironic that the nation that led the world in the frontiers of maths in the 19th century completely missed the boat in the applied math of signals intelligence in WWII. I'm referring to the tank serial numbers and the lack of care in Enigma codes, except by the Kriegsmarine, but even they eventually lost a code book to the allies, which they apparently considered an impossibility.

tsss 7y ago
It certainly didn't help that they killed all the academics and free-thinkers.
- dmos62 7y ago
  Quote? I'm vague on what went on in Germany in the first half of the century.
  - deleted 7y ago
    [deleted]
  - baobrien 7y ago
    In 1933, the Nazi regime passed a law[1] banning anyone they considered Jewish from holding any civil service job, including positions at universities. A large proportion of German academia was considered Jewish. [1] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_for_the_Restoration_of_the_Professional_Civil_Service https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_for_the_Restoration_of_the...
    - sadjfkajsdkfj 7y ago
      In addition to this they removed anyone considered a socialist or other political enemy.
  - bbddg 7y ago
    ... is this a joke?
anoncake 7y ago
It wasn't all incompetence. The head of the Abwehr was part of the resistance. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wilhelm_Canaris https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wilhelm_Canaris
- hef19898 7y ago
  True. Still, from what I know, he saw himself as a patriot. Which was the reason why he opposed the Nazis but the reason why he didn't defect or betray the Germans.
  - anoncake 7y ago
    If by "the Germans" you mean the German government, he did betray them, at least when it to war crimes and the Holocaust. I don't know if he also sabotaged the war but that would also be consistent with patriotism. A patriot loves his country, that doesn't mean they don't care about others at all. That would be some sort of combination of patriotism and psychopathy. A patriot could also have decide d to sabotage the war effort to end the war faster, to get rid of Hitler or to somewhat save the reputation of Germany. He didn't openly defect but that doesn't mean much for a spy.
    - hef19898 7y ago
      From what I remember of the documentation I saw about him back the day he never actively sabotaged the war effort or did things that sis put German troops in danger. He opposed the Nazi regime. Yes, I agree it is quite a feat of mental acrobatics. My impression was that he somehow seperated Nazis and the German nation. And that the war was a German and not really a Nazi thing. Maybe he just didn't want to see that Germany and the Nazis were the same thing at the time, maybe he also wanted a round two after WW1 or maybe he wasn't able to shake decades of upbringing and training. Either way, he was one of the few "good" Germans, even if not on Schindler levels, and definitely a very interesting person. Just look up his WW1 adventures. Notable, so, is that even in WW1 and after he was not necessarily a trained spy intel guy, AFAIK.
      - 7y ago
PhasmaFelis 7y ago
They had a lot of opsec problems. There's a great story about how using "cool" codenames instead of random ones bit them in the ass. It's nearly impossible for a bomber to navigate long distances in the dark over a blacked-out country, so the Germans came up with a radio navigation system involving beams transmitted from the mainland to intersect over the target, which the British figured out how to jam; the Germans came up with another nav system, and the Brits eventually jammed that one too. The British knew the Germans would be trying to find yet another way. They'd learned from Enigma decrypts about a new device called Wotan. One researcher looked up the word, learned that it was the name of a one-eyed god, and concluded that the new system would use a single transmitter with a rangefinding transponder aboard the bomber, instead of multiple beams like the previous ones. Starting from there, they had a countermeasure online and ready to go before the Germans even deployed Wotan. When the Nazis realized they'd been outmaneuvered from the start, they gave up on radio-guided bombing completely, at least against Britain.
- noir_lord 7y ago
  We also caught every single German spy and turned them all (iirc it was all) but didn’t know we’d got them all till after the wars conclusion. British intelligence was pretty impressive during WWII.
  - neaden 7y ago
    To be fair, some of the German spies were pretty bad at their jobs. Josef Jakobs stands out as a man who was just not a good spy: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Josef_Jakobs https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Josef_Jakobs
- chiph 7y ago
  Dr. R.V. Jones had significant involvement in the War of the Beams, and after the war wrote a book about British Scientific Intelligence efforts during the war. https://www.amazon.com/Most-Secret-Penguin-World-Collection-ebook/dp/B0033806QY https://www.amazon.com/Most-Secret-Penguin-World-Collection-...
hef19898 7y ago
Slightly off topic, but that mindset, ignoring expertise in field that could help in another, is still quite common in Germany if you ask me. And yes, the military intelligence of the Germans sucked in WW2. Didn't help neither that the culture, military and political, was highly idiological. When truth cannot be spoken and power won't listen facts are ignored. It cannot be what's not allowed to be. And then reality bites your ass ultimately.
bnegreve 7y ago
I suspect there is a strong winner bias here. Success stories of allies tends to be reported more often.
michaelt 7y ago
If you were a Nazi codebreaker whose successes in the war were classified, would you publish detailed memoirs? Or would you destroy the evidence, which was probably what your orders said to do anyway?

tsss 7y ago

It certainly didn't help that they killed all the academics and free-thinkers.

dmos62 7y ago
Quote? I'm vague on what went on in Germany in the first half of the century.
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
- baobrien 7y ago
  In 1933, the Nazi regime passed a law[1] banning anyone they considered Jewish from holding any civil service job, including positions at universities. A large proportion of German academia was considered Jewish. [1] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_for_the_Restoration_of_the_Professional_Civil_Service https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_for_the_Restoration_of_the...
  - sadjfkajsdkfj 7y ago
    In addition to this they removed anyone considered a socialist or other political enemy.
- bbddg 7y ago
  ... is this a joke?

anoncake 7y ago

It wasn't all incompetence. The head of the Abwehr was part of the resistance. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wilhelm_Canaris https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wilhelm_Canaris

hef19898 7y ago
True. Still, from what I know, he saw himself as a patriot. Which was the reason why he opposed the Nazis but the reason why he didn't defect or betray the Germans.
- anoncake 7y ago
  If by "the Germans" you mean the German government, he did betray them, at least when it to war crimes and the Holocaust. I don't know if he also sabotaged the war but that would also be consistent with patriotism. A patriot loves his country, that doesn't mean they don't care about others at all. That would be some sort of combination of patriotism and psychopathy. A patriot could also have decide d to sabotage the war effort to end the war faster, to get rid of Hitler or to somewhat save the reputation of Germany. He didn't openly defect but that doesn't mean much for a spy.
  - hef19898 7y ago
    From what I remember of the documentation I saw about him back the day he never actively sabotaged the war effort or did things that sis put German troops in danger. He opposed the Nazi regime. Yes, I agree it is quite a feat of mental acrobatics. My impression was that he somehow seperated Nazis and the German nation. And that the war was a German and not really a Nazi thing. Maybe he just didn't want to see that Germany and the Nazis were the same thing at the time, maybe he also wanted a round two after WW1 or maybe he wasn't able to shake decades of upbringing and training. Either way, he was one of the few "good" Germans, even if not on Schindler levels, and definitely a very interesting person. Just look up his WW1 adventures. Notable, so, is that even in WW1 and after he was not necessarily a trained spy intel guy, AFAIK.
    - 7y ago

PhasmaFelis 7y ago

They had a lot of opsec problems. There's a great story about how using "cool" codenames instead of random ones bit them in the ass. It's nearly impossible for a bomber to navigate long distances in the dark over a blacked-out country, so the Germans came up with a radio navigation system involving beams transmitted from the mainland to intersect over the target, which the British figured out how to jam; the Germans came up with another nav system, and the Brits eventually jammed that one too. The British knew the Germans would be trying to find yet another way. They'd learned from Enigma decrypts about a new device called Wotan. One researcher looked up the word, learned that it was the name of a one-eyed god, and concluded that the new system would use a single transmitter with a rangefinding transponder aboard the bomber, instead of multiple beams like the previous ones. Starting from there, they had a countermeasure online and ready to go before the Germans even deployed Wotan. When the Nazis realized they'd been outmaneuvered from the start, they gave up on radio-guided bombing completely, at least against Britain.

noir_lord 7y ago
We also caught every single German spy and turned them all (iirc it was all) but didn’t know we’d got them all till after the wars conclusion. British intelligence was pretty impressive during WWII.
- neaden 7y ago
  To be fair, some of the German spies were pretty bad at their jobs. Josef Jakobs stands out as a man who was just not a good spy: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Josef_Jakobs https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Josef_Jakobs
chiph 7y ago
Dr. R.V. Jones had significant involvement in the War of the Beams, and after the war wrote a book about British Scientific Intelligence efforts during the war. https://www.amazon.com/Most-Secret-Penguin-World-Collection-ebook/dp/B0033806QY https://www.amazon.com/Most-Secret-Penguin-World-Collection-...

hef19898 7y ago

Slightly off topic, but that mindset, ignoring expertise in field that could help in another, is still quite common in Germany if you ask me. And yes, the military intelligence of the Germans sucked in WW2. Didn't help neither that the culture, military and political, was highly idiological. When truth cannot be spoken and power won't listen facts are ignored. It cannot be what's not allowed to be. And then reality bites your ass ultimately.

bnegreve 7y ago

I suspect there is a strong winner bias here. Success stories of allies tends to be reported more often.

michaelt 7y ago

If you were a Nazi codebreaker whose successes in the war were classified, would you publish detailed memoirs? Or would you destroy the evidence, which was probably what your orders said to do anyway?