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I am generally on the side of Linus being a toxic asshole, but, 1. I would consider it inappropriate for the Linux Foundation to remove Linus without the invol

by geofft 7y ago

I am generally on the side of Linus being a toxic asshole, but, 1. I would consider it inappropriate for the Linux Foundation to remove Linus without the involvement of the community. They're there to be stewards of the project, not to run it, and while I have problems with Linus, I also have (different, unrelated, not directly comparable) problems with the corporate control of LF, and it would set a precedent that other decisions are in the hands of LF. And besides there's the practical problem that if Linus is still wanted by the community, banning one toxic asshole won't change the culture. If LF wants to advocate for the community to decide they no longer want Linus, that would be fine (and I'd honestly support it) and they should implement the community consensus if it emerges. (If they want to no longer pay Linus upwards of a half million dollars per year, that would certainly be within their rights, too.) 2. Along those lines it seems difficult to believe that Wikipedia's culture problem is a single dude. If we admit for the sake of argument that we do want WMF to ban assholes (which I can see the merits of), that's likely to translate to mass bans, which the existing community governance structures should at least be consulted in. (Even if one of the possible conclusions is "the existing community leadership are all asshole enablers and need to be stripped of power," make that decision after having the conversation.) 3. From reading around https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WP:FRAM https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WP:FRAM it seems like he's one of the most vocal opponents to new features being pushed by WMF that the community seems to not be enthusiastic about. See the comment starting "In the absence of any explanation, the cynic in me guesses...."

unreal37 7y ago
Quite clearly, Fram was told to stay away from a user named LauraHale (in March 2019) - to avoid any interactions with her or her content completely. Essentially, it's a restraining order. So what did he do for him to get a Wikipedia "restraining order" against him? AND... he broke that restraining order by mentioning her in some comments. I mean, this isn't some statement about "banning all assholes" so much as action against a single person who refused to stop harassing another person.
- microcolonel 7y ago
  > a single person who refused to stop harassing another person Fram wasn't out harassing anyone.
  - nsajko 7y ago
    Yeah, the accusation of harrassment is unfounded. Edit: To whoever downvoted me: The WMF T&S team (which banned Fram) did not say what was Fram banned for, neither was there any actions against him before the Arbitration Committee, there were not even any public complaints. What is happening to Fram on this thread is unjustified lynching.
    - geofft 7y ago
      I don't think "lynching" is a reasonable term here to describe being banned for a year from editing a single Wikipedia instance, even if the thread were not mostly leaning in favor of Fram as it is. TFA makes it clear that they didn't say what he was banned for and that there's no public info.
      - nsajko 7y ago
        I meant this very thread on HN. Here he is being "lynched" by people who do not know anything about the case calling him a harasser.
        unreal37 7y ago
        He was told (in 2017 and 2019) to completely avoid interacting with her and her content. The notice Fram posted himself was quite clear - don't report her content, don't edit her content, don't interact with her in any way. That's quite serious. How does someone get a warning like that from WMF?
        nsajko 7y ago
        Your comment is problematic for responding to because it is not clear if it is asking a question (and which question) or is it trying to say something between the lines. But I will try anyway: Essentially you are trying to say that Fram is a harasser because he got a warning from T&S. But that is not how T&S works. They (as far as is publicly known) react to any reports of misbehavior with (without investigation) trying to deescalate the situation by asking to stop interaction between concerned parties. Usually this only applies to Wikimedia staff, contractors, participants at Wikimedia events, etc. The fact that Fram even got a "warning" from the T&S is quite damning for T&S because they usually do not meddle in such stuff as was happening between him and LauraHale (for the uninitiated, she was writing a lot of, let us say it bluntly, crap articles and edits [0]; and he was, as a good editor, trying to fix those edits repeatedly), because of the implicated power that you can have over the Wikimedia communities by knowing someone on T&S and/or the Board. [0] She was writing duplicate paragraphs and mistranslating from a language she does not speak in an absurd manner. Edit: I deleted unfounded speculation I made against LauraHale. Sorry.

by geofft 7y ago

unreal37 7y ago

Quite clearly, Fram was told to stay away from a user named LauraHale (in March 2019) - to avoid any interactions with her or her content completely. Essentially, it's a restraining order. So what did he do for him to get a Wikipedia "restraining order" against him? AND... he broke that restraining order by mentioning her in some comments. I mean, this isn't some statement about "banning all assholes" so much as action against a single person who refused to stop harassing another person.

microcolonel 7y ago
> a single person who refused to stop harassing another person Fram wasn't out harassing anyone.
- nsajko 7y ago
  Yeah, the accusation of harrassment is unfounded. Edit: To whoever downvoted me: The WMF T&S team (which banned Fram) did not say what was Fram banned for, neither was there any actions against him before the Arbitration Committee, there were not even any public complaints. What is happening to Fram on this thread is unjustified lynching.
  - geofft 7y ago
    I don't think "lynching" is a reasonable term here to describe being banned for a year from editing a single Wikipedia instance, even if the thread were not mostly leaning in favor of Fram as it is. TFA makes it clear that they didn't say what he was banned for and that there's no public info.
    - nsajko 7y ago
      I meant this very thread on HN. Here he is being "lynched" by people who do not know anything about the case calling him a harasser.
      - unreal37 7y ago
        He was told (in 2017 and 2019) to completely avoid interacting with her and her content. The notice Fram posted himself was quite clear - don't report her content, don't edit her content, don't interact with her in any way. That's quite serious. How does someone get a warning like that from WMF?
        nsajko 7y ago
        Your comment is problematic for responding to because it is not clear if it is asking a question (and which question) or is it trying to say something between the lines. But I will try anyway: Essentially you are trying to say that Fram is a harasser because he got a warning from T&S. But that is not how T&S works. They (as far as is publicly known) react to any reports of misbehavior with (without investigation) trying to deescalate the situation by asking to stop interaction between concerned parties. Usually this only applies to Wikimedia staff, contractors, participants at Wikimedia events, etc. The fact that Fram even got a "warning" from the T&S is quite damning for T&S because they usually do not meddle in such stuff as was happening between him and LauraHale (for the uninitiated, she was writing a lot of, let us say it bluntly, crap articles and edits [0]; and he was, as a good editor, trying to fix those edits repeatedly), because of the implicated power that you can have over the Wikimedia communities by knowing someone on T&S and/or the Board. [0] She was writing duplicate paragraphs and mistranslating from a language she does not speak in an absurd manner. Edit: I deleted unfounded speculation I made against LauraHale. Sorry.