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> That said, historically women have been on the receiving end of physical violence from men far, far more often than vice versa and were told to suffer in sile

by cheez 7y ago

> That said, historically women have been on the receiving end of physical violence from men far, far more often than vice versa and were told to suffer in silence Statistically, this is not true. In relationships where there is one-sided violence, the violence is (something like) 70/30 with the woman initiating the violence. In relationships where there is two-sided violence, the woman initiates the violence more than half of the time. These studies are hard to find and often have no funding because they get shouted out of the mainstream consciousness. Here is a study that covers part of this: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1854883/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1854883/ Ask yourself why you've never heard of it. If you are speaking historically, surely you are not suggesting incarceration of men as reparations for things we didn't do?

untog 7y ago
> The authors say they have no intention of minimizing the very real problem of serious domestic violence — the classic male batterer. The survey did not cover the use of knives, guns, choking, or burning, and it was not concerned with the kind of situation that can drive a woman to seek shelter outside the home. The view of the authors is that most intimate partner violence should not be equated with severe battering. Domestic disputes that turn physical because of retaliation and escalation do not have the same causes or the same consequences as male battering. Couples counseling is generally regarded as ineffective for batterers, but if the violence is moderate and the injuries are minor, both partners are involved, and they want to stay together, it makes sense for a therapist to work with both of them. https://www.health.harvard.edu/newsletter_article/In_Brief_Domestic_violence_Not_always_one_sided https://www.health.harvard.edu/newsletter_article/In_Brief_D... The article's own summary suggests against making the kind of conclusions the article you linked to makes. > If you are speaking historically, surely you are not suggesting incarceration of men as reparations for things we didn't do? Not even slightly and it's an absurd reading of my post to suggest that I am.
- cheez 7y ago
  > The article's own summary suggests against making the kind of conclusions the article you linked to makes. Of course, they have to. Do you think 30% of men murder their wives? No, clearly it's some small percentage that severely batter. Therefore, those are the statistics that I would ignore and rather focus on the remainder who are the men that suffer as a result of this type of conflation. It's politically easy to conflate the two, of course. But it isn't intellectually honest. > Not even slightly and it's an absurd reading of my post to suggest that I am. So why should historical events I have no responsibility for serve to restrict my freedom? In an argument with my wife, I am the batterer, in divorce court, I am simply a pocket to be picked. Let's make sure we understand the power dynamics at play. This is about reducing my autonomy to benefit a certain segment of society.
  - untog 7y ago
    > So why should historical events I have no responsibility for serve to restrict my freedom? Again: I am not suggesting that. No-one is suggesting that. I am saying that society is attempting to move beyond horrifying historical trends, and that in the course of that has over-corrected in some areas. No-one is suggesting this is a good thing or that it shouldn't be fixed.
    - cheez 7y ago
      And I am saying these horrifying trends with men battering women to the point of death never existed.
lonelappde 7y ago
That article says that women strike more often, while men do more damage with their strikes. I know which I'd prefer, given the choice between being hit more often or more severely. Men murder intimate partner women at 4x the rate of women murdering men intimate partners, per https://www.ozy.com/acumen/us-domestic-violence-murder-rate-rises/89868 https://www.ozy.com/acumen/us-domestic-violence-murder-rate-...
- cheez 7y ago
  Not only that, it says that men don't strike back 70% of the time. Men are big and strong. No amount of mental gymnastics will fix that. So you absolutely should not engage someone stronger than you in a physical manner because retaliation would be bad.
hyperpape 7y ago
It doesn't seem impossible that women are just as likely to shove or slap a man they're in a partnership with, though I'd like to see more followup than this article to be convinced. However, the statistics on murder are pretty fucking clear: https://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2017/07/homicides-women/534306/ https://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2017/07/homicides.... Given the frequency with which murder is preceded by a string of violence requiring medical attention, I'd wager that's similarly unbalanced.
- cheez 7y ago
  Don't conflate the murdering men with men who have done nothing. This is the entire problem. All men don't rape, all men don't murder.
  - hyperpape 7y ago
    > All men don’t rape, all men don’t murder As a man, I’m well aware of this! However, your comment is a non-sequitur.
    - cheez 7y ago
      Then why are you so loose in your response? Why do you conflate murder with a loose definition of domestic violence? With the looser definition, women are MORE violent than men.
chachachoney 7y ago
You're offering up a tabloid source which is ultimately referencing a survey of 11,000 people. >> These studies are hard to find because they get shouted out of the mainstream consciousness. Abstracts for studies are pretty easy to find on the internet (even the one you mention that is "hard to find"). Are you saying that there are legitimate academic studies which have been deleted? Serious assertions require serious evidence. Do have any beyond a screen shot of a study taken out of context inside a PDF written by a defunct tabloid?
- cheez 7y ago
  I read the original study, but my google-fu is not good enough to find it.
  - justforyou 7y ago
    So are they hard to find because they get shouted out of mainstream consciousness, because of insufficient expertise at searching, or because they don't exist?
    - cheez 7y ago
      Let me ask you: had you heard of this very old statistic until now? Why not? Edit: I dusted off my Google-fu and found this: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1854883/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1854883/
      - justforyou 7y ago
        Yes. There's nothing intuitively shocking about those results. What exactly is your concern here?
        cheez 7y ago
        Weird. In one reply you ask me why these studies don't exist, in the next you agree they exist and are not controversial. That is, women are more violent than men. Weird.

by cheez 7y ago

untog 7y ago

> The authors say they have no intention of minimizing the very real problem of serious domestic violence — the classic male batterer. The survey did not cover the use of knives, guns, choking, or burning, and it was not concerned with the kind of situation that can drive a woman to seek shelter outside the home. The view of the authors is that most intimate partner violence should not be equated with severe battering. Domestic disputes that turn physical because of retaliation and escalation do not have the same causes or the same consequences as male battering. Couples counseling is generally regarded as ineffective for batterers, but if the violence is moderate and the injuries are minor, both partners are involved, and they want to stay together, it makes sense for a therapist to work with both of them. https://www.health.harvard.edu/newsletter_article/In_Brief_Domestic_violence_Not_always_one_sided https://www.health.harvard.edu/newsletter_article/In_Brief_D... The article's own summary suggests against making the kind of conclusions the article you linked to makes. > If you are speaking historically, surely you are not suggesting incarceration of men as reparations for things we didn't do? Not even slightly and it's an absurd reading of my post to suggest that I am.

cheez 7y ago
> The article's own summary suggests against making the kind of conclusions the article you linked to makes. Of course, they have to. Do you think 30% of men murder their wives? No, clearly it's some small percentage that severely batter. Therefore, those are the statistics that I would ignore and rather focus on the remainder who are the men that suffer as a result of this type of conflation. It's politically easy to conflate the two, of course. But it isn't intellectually honest. > Not even slightly and it's an absurd reading of my post to suggest that I am. So why should historical events I have no responsibility for serve to restrict my freedom? In an argument with my wife, I am the batterer, in divorce court, I am simply a pocket to be picked. Let's make sure we understand the power dynamics at play. This is about reducing my autonomy to benefit a certain segment of society.
- untog 7y ago
  > So why should historical events I have no responsibility for serve to restrict my freedom? Again: I am not suggesting that. No-one is suggesting that. I am saying that society is attempting to move beyond horrifying historical trends, and that in the course of that has over-corrected in some areas. No-one is suggesting this is a good thing or that it shouldn't be fixed.
  - cheez 7y ago
    And I am saying these horrifying trends with men battering women to the point of death never existed.

lonelappde 7y ago

That article says that women strike more often, while men do more damage with their strikes. I know which I'd prefer, given the choice between being hit more often or more severely. Men murder intimate partner women at 4x the rate of women murdering men intimate partners, per https://www.ozy.com/acumen/us-domestic-violence-murder-rate-rises/89868 https://www.ozy.com/acumen/us-domestic-violence-murder-rate-...

cheez 7y ago
Not only that, it says that men don't strike back 70% of the time. Men are big and strong. No amount of mental gymnastics will fix that. So you absolutely should not engage someone stronger than you in a physical manner because retaliation would be bad.

hyperpape 7y ago

It doesn't seem impossible that women are just as likely to shove or slap a man they're in a partnership with, though I'd like to see more followup than this article to be convinced. However, the statistics on murder are pretty fucking clear: https://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2017/07/homicides-women/534306/ https://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2017/07/homicides.... Given the frequency with which murder is preceded by a string of violence requiring medical attention, I'd wager that's similarly unbalanced.

cheez 7y ago
Don't conflate the murdering men with men who have done nothing. This is the entire problem. All men don't rape, all men don't murder.
- hyperpape 7y ago
  > All men don’t rape, all men don’t murder As a man, I’m well aware of this! However, your comment is a non-sequitur.
  - cheez 7y ago
    Then why are you so loose in your response? Why do you conflate murder with a loose definition of domestic violence? With the looser definition, women are MORE violent than men.

chachachoney 7y ago

You're offering up a tabloid source which is ultimately referencing a survey of 11,000 people. >> These studies are hard to find because they get shouted out of the mainstream consciousness. Abstracts for studies are pretty easy to find on the internet (even the one you mention that is "hard to find"). Are you saying that there are legitimate academic studies which have been deleted? Serious assertions require serious evidence. Do have any beyond a screen shot of a study taken out of context inside a PDF written by a defunct tabloid?

cheez 7y ago
I read the original study, but my google-fu is not good enough to find it.
- justforyou 7y ago
  So are they hard to find because they get shouted out of mainstream consciousness, because of insufficient expertise at searching, or because they don't exist?
  - cheez 7y ago
    Let me ask you: had you heard of this very old statistic until now? Why not? Edit: I dusted off my Google-fu and found this: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1854883/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1854883/
    - justforyou 7y ago
      Yes. There's nothing intuitively shocking about those results. What exactly is your concern here?
      - cheez 7y ago
        Weird. In one reply you ask me why these studies don't exist, in the next you agree they exist and are not controversial. That is, women are more violent than men. Weird.