7 ms·

In my opinion these kinds laws are of the kind that "we need to do something because we need to do something". The effects are marginal. If these laws were the

by phicoh 7y ago

In my opinion these kinds laws are of the kind that "we need to do something because we need to do something". The effects are marginal. If these laws were the result of solid scientific studies and engineering it would be different, but they are not. Basically everybody has to pay the price of having more noise pollution to save a few people not paying attention at what they are doing. The reason we get these kinds rules is because there is a regulatory framework for cars. which makes it easy to add additional requirements. For example, in the Netherlands both electric mopeds and high speed electric bikes get more popular. Certainly the bikes are at high speed essentially silent (small bike tires have less friction and make less noise). Because there is no framework to require bikes to make noise they don't have to. And needless to say, a collision with a bike going 45 km/h will do a lot of damage. If people bumping into silent things was a wide spread problem, then yes it would make sense to require every thing to make noise. But these types of accidents are just that, accidents. They will always happen. Taking random measures to reduce accidents with an unknown amount will just make society as a whole worse.

Retric 7y ago
> Taking random measures to reduce accidents with an unknown amount will just make society as a whole worse. It’s not random, actual studies gave demonstrated the risk for years. https://crashstats.nhtsa.dot.gov/Api/Public/ViewPublication/811204 https://crashstats.nhtsa.dot.gov/Api/Public/ViewPublication/... “The HEV was two times more likely to be involved in a pedestrian crash in these situations than was an ICE vehicle.” And no it’s not just about people not paying attention, the blind don’t get the option on this one.
- phicoh 7y ago
  That's why it is random. Solid engineering implies that you estimate how much effect this measure will have. Note that the report says 'Incidence rates provided in this report should be interpreted with caution due to the small sample size.' If this was solid engineering, there would minimum noise requirements to help people with reduced vision. This is similar to having a man with a flag walk in front of car. Because those horseless vehicles are just scary.
  - Retric 7y ago
    I was intentionally linking to an early study. There are plenty of studies looking into this issue and more than enough data to determine it’s a real problem. In fact many hybrids have included such systems for years. Here is a more recent example with far more data. https://www.iihs.org/media/0465243f-89d5-4fa7-95c1-367f1e2c1c0a/-1115601825/HLDI%20Research/Bulletins/hldi_bulletin_28.12.pdf https://www.iihs.org/media/0465243f-89d5-4fa7-95c1-367f1e2c1... Overall it’s on the order of hundreds more deaths in the US alone assuming every car becomes a hybrid or electric vehicle without these systems.
    - nitrogen 7y ago
      And even without deaths it's far more comfortable as a pedestrian if I can hear a car coming before I turn my head. Situational awareness as another comment mentioned elsewhere relies on all of the senses. I for one would like more sound from e-scooters; been almost hit a few times.
      - brokenmachine 7y ago
        Personally I'd rather have the environment as free of noise pollution as possible, and I'll just look both ways before I cross the street.
        Retric 7y ago
        Meanwhile, parking lots turn into a deadly game of frogger... The average reaction time for humans is 0.25 seconds to a visual stimulus, 0.17 for an audio stimulus. You’re crossing at a crosswalk past stopped cars and someone takes their foot off the break, you will dodge faster with engine noises. And, it’s not just about crossing the street, knowing a car is on changes how people walk past seemingly parked cars. Worse, saying you will just get this right every single time you do it, however you only need to make a mistake once to die.
        brokenmachine 7y ago

by phicoh 7y ago

Retric 7y ago

> Taking random measures to reduce accidents with an unknown amount will just make society as a whole worse. It’s not random, actual studies gave demonstrated the risk for years. https://crashstats.nhtsa.dot.gov/Api/Public/ViewPublication/811204 https://crashstats.nhtsa.dot.gov/Api/Public/ViewPublication/... “The HEV was two times more likely to be involved in a pedestrian crash in these situations than was an ICE vehicle.” And no it’s not just about people not paying attention, the blind don’t get the option on this one.

phicoh 7y ago
That's why it is random. Solid engineering implies that you estimate how much effect this measure will have. Note that the report says 'Incidence rates provided in this report should be interpreted with caution due to the small sample size.' If this was solid engineering, there would minimum noise requirements to help people with reduced vision. This is similar to having a man with a flag walk in front of car. Because those horseless vehicles are just scary.
- Retric 7y ago
  I was intentionally linking to an early study. There are plenty of studies looking into this issue and more than enough data to determine it’s a real problem. In fact many hybrids have included such systems for years. Here is a more recent example with far more data. https://www.iihs.org/media/0465243f-89d5-4fa7-95c1-367f1e2c1c0a/-1115601825/HLDI%20Research/Bulletins/hldi_bulletin_28.12.pdf https://www.iihs.org/media/0465243f-89d5-4fa7-95c1-367f1e2c1... Overall it’s on the order of hundreds more deaths in the US alone assuming every car becomes a hybrid or electric vehicle without these systems.
  - nitrogen 7y ago
    And even without deaths it's far more comfortable as a pedestrian if I can hear a car coming before I turn my head. Situational awareness as another comment mentioned elsewhere relies on all of the senses. I for one would like more sound from e-scooters; been almost hit a few times.
    - brokenmachine 7y ago
      Personally I'd rather have the environment as free of noise pollution as possible, and I'll just look both ways before I cross the street.
      - Retric 7y ago
        Meanwhile, parking lots turn into a deadly game of frogger... The average reaction time for humans is 0.25 seconds to a visual stimulus, 0.17 for an audio stimulus. You’re crossing at a crosswalk past stopped cars and someone takes their foot off the break, you will dodge faster with engine noises. And, it’s not just about crossing the street, knowing a car is on changes how people walk past seemingly parked cars. Worse, saying you will just get this right every single time you do it, however you only need to make a mistake once to die.
        brokenmachine 7y ago