5 ms·

The implementation requirements are defined in Annex VIII of https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/ALL/?uri=CELEX:52014AG0003 https://eur-lex.europa.eu/leg

The implementation requirements are defined in Annex VIII of https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/ALL/?uri=CELEX:52014AG0003 https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/ALL/?uri=CELEX:52... and there's an upper bound (as in: not louder than an ICE car) but no lower bound. From reading that Annex, Renault Zoe should be compliant (sound engine below 30km/h, can be disabled, sound adapts to speed) and while it's clearly audible on the sidewalk, it's significantly more muted than an ICE car: I don't think it's audible through a closed window, and probably not even through an open window that's somewhat raised. Plus, such a system doesn't _allow_ for the more pronounced noises ICEs can make in urban traffic (eg. cranking up the engine speed to show off).

anticensor 7y ago
Blip to show can be replaced by a multi-tone air horn system as in trains (low tone as departure and impatience horn, higher tone(s) as aversive warning).
zaroth 7y ago
Interestingly the beginning of the document you linked is all about reducing noise levels and the deleterious effects of car noise on human health and well-being. > Traffic noise harms health in numerous ways. Protracted noise-related stress can exhaust human physical reserves, disrupt the regulatory capacity of organ functions and hence limit their effectiveness. Traffic noise is a potential risk factor for the development of medical conditions and incidents such as high blood pressure and heart attacks. But you are looking at an old draft. The updated Annex VIII references another document which does indeed specify a minimum noise level. https://ec.europa.eu/transparency/regdoc/rep/3/2017/EN/C-2017-4296-F1-EN-ANNEX-1-PART-1.PDF https://ec.europa.eu/transparency/regdoc/rep/3/2017/EN/C-201...
- pgeorgi 7y ago
  Oops, thanks. Because this requires more digging: the detailed specs come from UNECE Regulation 138 which can be found at https://www.unece.org/fileadmin/DAM/trans/main/wp29/wp29regs/2017/R138r1e.pdf https://www.unece.org/fileadmin/DAM/trans/main/wp29/wp29regs... (which also seems to be the current edition at this time, according to the special interest database at https://globalautoregs.com/rules/205-quiet-road-transport-vehicles https://globalautoregs.com/rules/205-quiet-road-transport-ve...). The relevant parts are 6.2.1.2 and the table in 6.2.8, and they lay out a minimum sound level of 56dB(A) at 2m distance to the car (PP' line, as defined in the appendix to Annex 3) at 20km/h, that must be spread out over two of the bands in the table (at least one <= 1600Hz) In other tables on the net, I get 50dB as the "minimum street noise", 70dB for a car at 10m distance and 45-60dB for a quiet-to-normal conversation at 1m distance. 56dB at 2m still seems relatively muted in that context.
  - zaroth 7y ago
    No, 70dB is a vacuum cleaner level noise. 60dB is not a single conversation, more like a restaurant full of people. But most importantly, perceived volume is highly relative. In a noisy urban environment that god-awful drivetone might not horrible, but it still has to be noticeable. After all, the busy urban environment is exactly where it's theoretically supposed to be helping people notice the car! But how about when someone is driving through their suburban condo complex coming home after a late night of work?

anticensor 7y ago

Blip to show can be replaced by a multi-tone air horn system as in trains (low tone as departure and impatience horn, higher tone(s) as aversive warning).

zaroth 7y ago

Interestingly the beginning of the document you linked is all about reducing noise levels and the deleterious effects of car noise on human health and well-being. > Traffic noise harms health in numerous ways. Protracted noise-related stress can exhaust human physical reserves, disrupt the regulatory capacity of organ functions and hence limit their effectiveness. Traffic noise is a potential risk factor for the development of medical conditions and incidents such as high blood pressure and heart attacks. But you are looking at an old draft. The updated Annex VIII references another document which does indeed specify a minimum noise level. https://ec.europa.eu/transparency/regdoc/rep/3/2017/EN/C-2017-4296-F1-EN-ANNEX-1-PART-1.PDF https://ec.europa.eu/transparency/regdoc/rep/3/2017/EN/C-201...

pgeorgi 7y ago
Oops, thanks. Because this requires more digging: the detailed specs come from UNECE Regulation 138 which can be found at https://www.unece.org/fileadmin/DAM/trans/main/wp29/wp29regs/2017/R138r1e.pdf https://www.unece.org/fileadmin/DAM/trans/main/wp29/wp29regs... (which also seems to be the current edition at this time, according to the special interest database at https://globalautoregs.com/rules/205-quiet-road-transport-vehicles https://globalautoregs.com/rules/205-quiet-road-transport-ve...). The relevant parts are 6.2.1.2 and the table in 6.2.8, and they lay out a minimum sound level of 56dB(A) at 2m distance to the car (PP' line, as defined in the appendix to Annex 3) at 20km/h, that must be spread out over two of the bands in the table (at least one <= 1600Hz) In other tables on the net, I get 50dB as the "minimum street noise", 70dB for a car at 10m distance and 45-60dB for a quiet-to-normal conversation at 1m distance. 56dB at 2m still seems relatively muted in that context.
- zaroth 7y ago
  No, 70dB is a vacuum cleaner level noise. 60dB is not a single conversation, more like a restaurant full of people. But most importantly, perceived volume is highly relative. In a noisy urban environment that god-awful drivetone might not horrible, but it still has to be noticeable. After all, the busy urban environment is exactly where it's theoretically supposed to be helping people notice the car! But how about when someone is driving through their suburban condo complex coming home after a late night of work?