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As an atheist, that sounds terrible. Also there is some legit criticism: taken from wikipedia (where you can see the sources): It also warns members to "avoid i

As an atheist, that sounds terrible. Also there is some legit criticism: taken from wikipedia (where you can see the sources): It also warns members to "avoid independent thinking", claiming such thinking "was introduced by Satan the Devil" and would "cause division". Those who openly disagree with official teachings are condemned as "apostates" who are "mentally diseased". https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jehovah%27s_Witnesses https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jehovah%27s_Witnesses This has nothing to do with being a community in my mind. A community would help it's people develop and not keep them in (mental) chains.

funnybeam 7y ago
As another atheist, that sounds (taken at face value) pretty good to me. Community is massively missing for many people and having a structure that provides that is very attractive. Not disputing your points, just would be nice to have an equivalent without the religion and other negative side effects
- permatech 7y ago
  Community is great, but a community of people who drink the kool-aid to get along and go along sounds awful.
  - afiori 7y ago
    As an (Jungian?) atheist I fully claim that similar problems exist fully within non religious communities. Try voicing doubts on progressive ideologies in many woke communities, they do not take is well either. I do not understand why communities often morph in this way.
tomp 7y ago
Sounds like present day mainstream media... e.g. if you “think independently” and decide that affirmative action is bad, you’re branded a “bigoted racist” or “sexist” or “nazi”
- dang 7y ago
  "Eschew flamebait. Don't introduce flamewar topics unless you have something genuinely new to say. Avoid unrelated controversies and generic tangents." https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
barry-cotter 7y ago
That’s the point. A community that can keep people who are indifferent or hostile to its values out has some chance of survival. One that can’t doesn't. Keeping people like you or me out is not an incidental benefit of the Jehovah’s Witnesses, it’s indispensable. If you completely disagree with a community's core tenets they do not want you. And if you’re not a member of a community your feelings about how it should be governed are relevant only insofar as they are enforced by men with guns.
- kuerbel 7y ago
  I really don't think so. Societal pressure can be even more convincing than violence. If you are going to lose all of your friends and family if you complain about something, that is not healthy. If you have to tell your followers that independent thought is coming right from the devil (lol btw), somethings not quite right with your faith. Else you would not fear independent thought.
  - afiori 7y ago
    > Societal pressure can be even more convincing than violence. this is true, these communities are walking on a thin rope. They are constantly in danger of falling out of balance. > somethings not quite right with your faith. Else you would not fear independent thought. I disagree. There is no indication that rationality and independent thinking are what is best for an individual. They have been hugely positive for humanity, but there is also freedom in submission. Being in a healthy community where you fully understand your role in life seems a lot better than being a nihilist (not the only outcome, but also not the worst one).
dang 7y ago
This crosses into religious flamewar. Please keep that far away from this site. If you're wondering where the differences are, there are two critical ones. The GP's comment was mostly about personal experience, where your comment went generic—that's how we get boring flamewars. Had you shared personal experience in return, this might have been better. Second, your comment swerved into indignant rhetoric. When indignation levels spike up, the needle goes into the red for flamewar risk. As a side point, I think you got your religions mixed up. That's a minor detail but it illustrates how generic the comment was. Generic comments on divisive issues are what we're most trying to avoid on HN, because they make discussion more repetitive and provoke other users into posting even more generically and indignantly (e.g. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20317078 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20317078). https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

funnybeam 7y ago

As another atheist, that sounds (taken at face value) pretty good to me. Community is massively missing for many people and having a structure that provides that is very attractive. Not disputing your points, just would be nice to have an equivalent without the religion and other negative side effects

permatech 7y ago
Community is great, but a community of people who drink the kool-aid to get along and go along sounds awful.
- afiori 7y ago
  As an (Jungian?) atheist I fully claim that similar problems exist fully within non religious communities. Try voicing doubts on progressive ideologies in many woke communities, they do not take is well either. I do not understand why communities often morph in this way.

tomp 7y ago

Sounds like present day mainstream media... e.g. if you “think independently” and decide that affirmative action is bad, you’re branded a “bigoted racist” or “sexist” or “nazi”

dang 7y ago
"Eschew flamebait. Don't introduce flamewar topics unless you have something genuinely new to say. Avoid unrelated controversies and generic tangents." https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

barry-cotter 7y ago

That’s the point. A community that can keep people who are indifferent or hostile to its values out has some chance of survival. One that can’t doesn't. Keeping people like you or me out is not an incidental benefit of the Jehovah’s Witnesses, it’s indispensable. If you completely disagree with a community's core tenets they do not want you. And if you’re not a member of a community your feelings about how it should be governed are relevant only insofar as they are enforced by men with guns.

kuerbel 7y ago
I really don't think so. Societal pressure can be even more convincing than violence. If you are going to lose all of your friends and family if you complain about something, that is not healthy. If you have to tell your followers that independent thought is coming right from the devil (lol btw), somethings not quite right with your faith. Else you would not fear independent thought.
- afiori 7y ago
  > Societal pressure can be even more convincing than violence. this is true, these communities are walking on a thin rope. They are constantly in danger of falling out of balance. > somethings not quite right with your faith. Else you would not fear independent thought. I disagree. There is no indication that rationality and independent thinking are what is best for an individual. They have been hugely positive for humanity, but there is also freedom in submission. Being in a healthy community where you fully understand your role in life seems a lot better than being a nihilist (not the only outcome, but also not the worst one).

dang 7y ago

This crosses into religious flamewar. Please keep that far away from this site. If you're wondering where the differences are, there are two critical ones. The GP's comment was mostly about personal experience, where your comment went generic—that's how we get boring flamewars. Had you shared personal experience in return, this might have been better. Second, your comment swerved into indignant rhetoric. When indignation levels spike up, the needle goes into the red for flamewar risk. As a side point, I think you got your religions mixed up. That's a minor detail but it illustrates how generic the comment was. Generic comments on divisive issues are what we're most trying to avoid on HN, because they make discussion more repetitive and provoke other users into posting even more generically and indignantly (e.g. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20317078 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20317078). https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html