4 ms·

Confused, can someone explain why this is downvoted?

sandworm101 7y ago
Defining wiretaps as only content is splitting legal hairs. Location data alone can get people convicted. Browsing history (IP address/DNS lookups etc) and connection data (who you texted etc) is arguably also not "content". For the person facing the charges there is little practical difference between a content "wiretap" and non-content non-wiretap.
- mehrdadn 7y ago
  Oh I see. I'm kinda torn on this. Content vs. metadata is one thing, and I get where you're coming from, but if I understood your comment correctly, that wasn't quite the only distinction here? You were talking about cell location information, which is independent of calls/texts/other communication -- it's always there by the mere fact of you having cell service. It seems quite legitimate to point out that that's not "wiretapping"?
  - wongarsu 7y ago
    > it's always there by the mere fact of you having cell service. The current location is known by necessity. There is no technical reason to keep a history of past locations.
    - mehrdadn 7y ago
      I didn't say there is a technical reason for keeping a history. I said doing so is not "wiretapping".
- darawk 7y ago
  The word "wiretap" has a specific meaning, though. It does not mean location data. It means content. Nobody uses the word "wiretap" to mean location data.
  - darkpuma 7y ago
    The word "wiretap" has a specific obsolete meaning. The state of telephony moved on and so did the state of "wiretapping", rendering the term itself an anachronism. Incidentally "pen register", e.g. recording the metadata of a line, is also an anachronism. Considering both of these terms are anachronisms originally created to describe distict devices which haven't been used in decades, getting bent out of shape over the difference between the two doesn't seem like a productive direction to steer the conversation.
    - darawk 7y ago
      The word wiretap has a clear meaning that is unrelated to the physical process it used to represent. Literally everyone understands this. There are many terms like this, and it's not a problem. We don't need to redefine the term "wiretap" just because you're no longer physically tapping wires. What is being revealed is the same, that is what everyone cares about, and so that is how the term is used.
      - darkpuma 7y ago
        The term wiretap is a term of art and as such is bound to be used imprecisely by people who aren't experts in that particular domain. Getting upset over somebody saying 'wiretap' instead of 'pen register' really exemplifies the worst aspects of socializing with engineers and lawyers. As you allude to, seeing the forest instead of the trees reveals that people who are upset don't care how any of it works and they don't care which terms are assigned to which concepts. They care that their privacy is being violated. And no, they certainly don't care about court opinions concerning metadata not being data or call records not deserving privacy. The distinction between wiretaps, pen registers, and any other bullshit they dream up is not important to most people, so dragging the conversation into the weeds over the differences between the terms is not productive because it's a distinction without a meaningful difference (unless you're inclined to hassle privacy advocates.)
        darawk 7y ago

Defining wiretaps as only content is splitting legal hairs. Location data alone can get people convicted. Browsing history (IP address/DNS lookups etc) and connection data (who you texted etc) is arguably also not "content". For the person facing the charges there is little practical difference between a content "wiretap" and non-content non-wiretap.

mehrdadn 7y ago
Oh I see. I'm kinda torn on this. Content vs. metadata is one thing, and I get where you're coming from, but if I understood your comment correctly, that wasn't quite the only distinction here? You were talking about cell location information, which is independent of calls/texts/other communication -- it's always there by the mere fact of you having cell service. It seems quite legitimate to point out that that's not "wiretapping"?
- wongarsu 7y ago
  > it's always there by the mere fact of you having cell service. The current location is known by necessity. There is no technical reason to keep a history of past locations.
  - mehrdadn 7y ago
    I didn't say there is a technical reason for keeping a history. I said doing so is not "wiretapping".
darawk 7y ago
The word "wiretap" has a specific meaning, though. It does not mean location data. It means content. Nobody uses the word "wiretap" to mean location data.
- darkpuma 7y ago
  The word "wiretap" has a specific obsolete meaning. The state of telephony moved on and so did the state of "wiretapping", rendering the term itself an anachronism. Incidentally "pen register", e.g. recording the metadata of a line, is also an anachronism. Considering both of these terms are anachronisms originally created to describe distict devices which haven't been used in decades, getting bent out of shape over the difference between the two doesn't seem like a productive direction to steer the conversation.
  - darawk 7y ago
    The word wiretap has a clear meaning that is unrelated to the physical process it used to represent. Literally everyone understands this. There are many terms like this, and it's not a problem. We don't need to redefine the term "wiretap" just because you're no longer physically tapping wires. What is being revealed is the same, that is what everyone cares about, and so that is how the term is used.
    - darkpuma 7y ago
      The term wiretap is a term of art and as such is bound to be used imprecisely by people who aren't experts in that particular domain. Getting upset over somebody saying 'wiretap' instead of 'pen register' really exemplifies the worst aspects of socializing with engineers and lawyers. As you allude to, seeing the forest instead of the trees reveals that people who are upset don't care how any of it works and they don't care which terms are assigned to which concepts. They care that their privacy is being violated. And no, they certainly don't care about court opinions concerning metadata not being data or call records not deserving privacy. The distinction between wiretaps, pen registers, and any other bullshit they dream up is not important to most people, so dragging the conversation into the weeds over the differences between the terms is not productive because it's a distinction without a meaningful difference (unless you're inclined to hassle privacy advocates.)
      - darawk 7y ago