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I don’t know the complete details of Jehovah’s Witnesses. But then not celebrating birthdays along with not celebrating [almost] any other major fun holiday amo

I don’t know the complete details of Jehovah’s Witnesses. But then not celebrating birthdays along with not celebrating [almost] any other major fun holiday among things does seem to be a definite negative aspect. I’ve read if you accuse someone in the religion of abuse and the only thing you have is he said she said, then the accuser is essentially iced out and ostracized from their religious culture/society. This includes children. Unless I’m mistaken, it does seem like the Witnesses are having children miss out on what you stated and in general seem like a bad example to bring up. - For both parents working all the time, it is a negative for most children.

barry-cotter 7y ago
Witnesses miss out on birthdays, non Witnesses miss out on being a part of their community with the benefits and disadvantages that come with that. I’m not familiar with them but any demanding (and hence cohesive) religious community I’m aware of is it’s own social group, support network, family substitute if someone is sick or when somebody dies or just needs to move. Mormons celebrate birthdays but the adults have to give up alcohol, caffeine, swearing and R-rated movies. Communities are bundles of goods, they don’t come à la carte. Religious communities that demand nothing from their adherents other than weekly attendance and nothing else that is not appropriate to their social and class position like Unitarianism, Episcopalianism or Liberal Judaism wither because people wonder why they bother attending. Communities demand and give different things. Birthday parties seem a very small thing to give up if an actual community is what you get in return. Regarding accusations why should making accusations be costless? If you’re trying to drum someone out of a community and fail to bring convincing evidence they kick you out. It’s just a community deciding on its internal norms. The US legal system has different burdens of proof and punishments when it comes to slander but the US system is still available to them. Communities exist outside the state.
- react_burger38 7y ago
  Small correction -- members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints (of which I am one) don't have to give up on caffeine. There were some people who taught and practiced that, but that is largely in the past. Even BYU, the church-owned school, now sells fully-caffeinated Coke on campus. This was a fairly recent development. As well, members are encouraged to avoid any media that includes sexually explicit, violent, or otherwise negative content -- not only avoiding R-rated movies. The church teaches that people should be careful about their media choices and consume media that enlightens or edifies, not just entertains. Active members of the church definitely vary in how they interpret that, of course. I do love your point about sacrificing some things and getting a community in return. I work as a software engineer and at the age of 25 I already have two kids. My wife and I definitely sacrifice for them, but I hope we can build a loving family that will give us social returns that are lifelong. Growing up, I had a large network of cousins and siblings that were closer to me than friends were. I know much of this is because of the influence of the church. It is also true that being a member gives you a network of people -- people are always around to help you move in and out, they're always there every Sunday, etc. Members are assigned "ministers", two people who check up on them, are officially assigned to love them, and report back to the leadership of each ward (congregation) regularly about any problems the people they minister to may have. All this in addition to the friendships that naturally form with people you see once a week. Sacrificing alcohol, swearing, and other things -- tithing, Sundays, a two year-mission -- seems like a small trade in comparison for the creation of relationships with people who love you and who you love in return.
  - kuerbel 7y ago
    As an atheist, that sounds terrible. Also there is some legit criticism: taken from wikipedia (where you can see the sources): It also warns members to "avoid independent thinking", claiming such thinking "was introduced by Satan the Devil" and would "cause division". Those who openly disagree with official teachings are condemned as "apostates" who are "mentally diseased". https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jehovah%27s_Witnesses https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jehovah%27s_Witnesses This has nothing to do with being a community in my mind. A community would help it's people develop and not keep them in (mental) chains.
    - funnybeam 7y ago
      As another atheist, that sounds (taken at face value) pretty good to me. Community is massively missing for many people and having a structure that provides that is very attractive. Not disputing your points, just would be nice to have an equivalent without the religion and other negative side effects
      - permatech 7y ago
        Community is great, but a community of people who drink the kool-aid to get along and go along sounds awful.
        afiori 7y ago
        As an (Jungian?) atheist I fully claim that similar problems exist fully within non religious communities. Try voicing doubts on progressive ideologies in many woke communities, they do not take is well either. I do not understand why communities often morph in this way.
    - tomp 7y ago
      Sounds like present day mainstream media... e.g. if you “think independently” and decide that affirmative action is bad, you’re branded a “bigoted racist” or “sexist” or “nazi”
- EdwardDiego 7y ago
  Excommunication / shunning whatever is incredibly harmful to the teenagers it's frequently applied to. I've seen the aftermath.

barry-cotter 7y ago

Witnesses miss out on birthdays, non Witnesses miss out on being a part of their community with the benefits and disadvantages that come with that. I’m not familiar with them but any demanding (and hence cohesive) religious community I’m aware of is it’s own social group, support network, family substitute if someone is sick or when somebody dies or just needs to move. Mormons celebrate birthdays but the adults have to give up alcohol, caffeine, swearing and R-rated movies. Communities are bundles of goods, they don’t come à la carte. Religious communities that demand nothing from their adherents other than weekly attendance and nothing else that is not appropriate to their social and class position like Unitarianism, Episcopalianism or Liberal Judaism wither because people wonder why they bother attending. Communities demand and give different things. Birthday parties seem a very small thing to give up if an actual community is what you get in return. Regarding accusations why should making accusations be costless? If you’re trying to drum someone out of a community and fail to bring convincing evidence they kick you out. It’s just a community deciding on its internal norms. The US legal system has different burdens of proof and punishments when it comes to slander but the US system is still available to them. Communities exist outside the state.

react_burger38 7y ago
Small correction -- members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints (of which I am one) don't have to give up on caffeine. There were some people who taught and practiced that, but that is largely in the past. Even BYU, the church-owned school, now sells fully-caffeinated Coke on campus. This was a fairly recent development. As well, members are encouraged to avoid any media that includes sexually explicit, violent, or otherwise negative content -- not only avoiding R-rated movies. The church teaches that people should be careful about their media choices and consume media that enlightens or edifies, not just entertains. Active members of the church definitely vary in how they interpret that, of course. I do love your point about sacrificing some things and getting a community in return. I work as a software engineer and at the age of 25 I already have two kids. My wife and I definitely sacrifice for them, but I hope we can build a loving family that will give us social returns that are lifelong. Growing up, I had a large network of cousins and siblings that were closer to me than friends were. I know much of this is because of the influence of the church. It is also true that being a member gives you a network of people -- people are always around to help you move in and out, they're always there every Sunday, etc. Members are assigned "ministers", two people who check up on them, are officially assigned to love them, and report back to the leadership of each ward (congregation) regularly about any problems the people they minister to may have. All this in addition to the friendships that naturally form with people you see once a week. Sacrificing alcohol, swearing, and other things -- tithing, Sundays, a two year-mission -- seems like a small trade in comparison for the creation of relationships with people who love you and who you love in return.
- kuerbel 7y ago
  As an atheist, that sounds terrible. Also there is some legit criticism: taken from wikipedia (where you can see the sources): It also warns members to "avoid independent thinking", claiming such thinking "was introduced by Satan the Devil" and would "cause division". Those who openly disagree with official teachings are condemned as "apostates" who are "mentally diseased". https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jehovah%27s_Witnesses https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jehovah%27s_Witnesses This has nothing to do with being a community in my mind. A community would help it's people develop and not keep them in (mental) chains.
  - funnybeam 7y ago
    As another atheist, that sounds (taken at face value) pretty good to me. Community is massively missing for many people and having a structure that provides that is very attractive. Not disputing your points, just would be nice to have an equivalent without the religion and other negative side effects
    - permatech 7y ago
      Community is great, but a community of people who drink the kool-aid to get along and go along sounds awful.
      - afiori 7y ago
        As an (Jungian?) atheist I fully claim that similar problems exist fully within non religious communities. Try voicing doubts on progressive ideologies in many woke communities, they do not take is well either. I do not understand why communities often morph in this way.
  - tomp 7y ago
    Sounds like present day mainstream media... e.g. if you “think independently” and decide that affirmative action is bad, you’re branded a “bigoted racist” or “sexist” or “nazi”
EdwardDiego 7y ago
Excommunication / shunning whatever is incredibly harmful to the teenagers it's frequently applied to. I've seen the aftermath.