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> 6) It's impossible to perfectly balance a 40 hour working week and family. Best you can aim for is a kind of homeostasis where work suffers for family one wee

> 6) It's impossible to perfectly balance a 40 hour working week and family. Best you can aim for is a kind of homeostasis where work suffers for family one week and then family suffers a bit for work the next. The article refers to things like: > But there is always another client to defend, story to write or struggling student who just can’t wait. Here are things I have missed: my daughter’s seventh birthday, my son’s 10th birthday party, two family vacations, three Halloweens, every school camping trip. She didn't even try to balance...

EdwardDiego 7y ago
I agree in that regard, but the child had a father and grandparents actively involved in their lives. She may come to regret not building a closer relationship with her children in the future, but it sounds like the children have other loving adults in their lives so they'll do okay.
rayiner 7y ago
Americans assign a silly and unjustified sentimental value to things like birthday parties and school outings. Part of my wife’s family is Jehovah’s witnesses, who don’t even celebrate birthdays. Are those kids somehow missing out? Do you think the immigrant parents that own a Chinese restaurant open seven days a week make it to any of their kids school functions or camping trips? Are they being irreparably damaged?
- jedberg 7y ago
  > Do you think the immigrant parents that own a Chinese restaurant open seven days a week make it to any of their kids school functions or camping trips? Are they being irreparably damaged? Based on my experience going to college with a few kids like that, yes. They all resented their childhood and the fact that the only way to see their parents was to work in the restaurant.
  - rayiner 7y ago
    Yet they’re in college. Their parents having prioritized work over their kids undoubtedly will allow those kids to live an immensely better life than they would have otherwise. There’s millions of people in the world that would trade places with them in a heartbeat. One of my fears is that my kids will learn these bad American ideas from media. I saw my daughter watching a Disney show (Bunk’d), where a high achieving Asian girl was telling her parents they “pushed her too hard.” No wonder China is eating our lunch.
    - harryh 7y ago
      Ironically, no matter how attentive of a parent you are, your daughter is in fact likely to pick up ideas like that from media, her friends, and the surrounding culture. Alas!
    - wishinghand 7y ago
      > No wonder China is eating our lunch! Slave like conditions can do that to a more moderate work-life balance culture.
      - rayiner 7y ago
        There is lot of room between “slave like conditions” and the modern American trend of decadent children and adolescents that live in a state of extended infancy well into their 20s. From 1948 to 2000, the teenage labor force participation rate was 45-55%. Since 2000 it has dropped dramatically, to just 35% last year.
        barry-cotter 7y ago
        “Extended infancy”? Really? Protracted adolescence sure, a giant pointless distraction fine, a diversion from things you value, ok, but infancy? Infants and children do not take time off to find themselves, travel, take a career break or whatever in particular you don’t value about this American (and Western) cultural tendency. If you don’t want your children to do this what are you going to do about it? Help them get real jobs without going to college? Accelerate their paths into professional jobs by accelerating their academic careers? Because if you don’t do something out of the ordinary you’re going to get pretty much the same results as other people in your position.
- skinnymuch 7y ago
  I don’t know the complete details of Jehovah’s Witnesses. But then not celebrating birthdays along with not celebrating [almost] any other major fun holiday among things does seem to be a definite negative aspect. I’ve read if you accuse someone in the religion of abuse and the only thing you have is he said she said, then the accuser is essentially iced out and ostracized from their religious culture/society. This includes children. Unless I’m mistaken, it does seem like the Witnesses are having children miss out on what you stated and in general seem like a bad example to bring up. - For both parents working all the time, it is a negative for most children.
  - barry-cotter 7y ago
    Witnesses miss out on birthdays, non Witnesses miss out on being a part of their community with the benefits and disadvantages that come with that. I’m not familiar with them but any demanding (and hence cohesive) religious community I’m aware of is it’s own social group, support network, family substitute if someone is sick or when somebody dies or just needs to move. Mormons celebrate birthdays but the adults have to give up alcohol, caffeine, swearing and R-rated movies. Communities are bundles of goods, they don’t come à la carte. Religious communities that demand nothing from their adherents other than weekly attendance and nothing else that is not appropriate to their social and class position like Unitarianism, Episcopalianism or Liberal Judaism wither because people wonder why they bother attending. Communities demand and give different things. Birthday parties seem a very small thing to give up if an actual community is what you get in return. Regarding accusations why should making accusations be costless? If you’re trying to drum someone out of a community and fail to bring convincing evidence they kick you out. It’s just a community deciding on its internal norms. The US legal system has different burdens of proof and punishments when it comes to slander but the US system is still available to them. Communities exist outside the state.
    - react_burger38 7y ago
      Small correction -- members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints (of which I am one) don't have to give up on caffeine. There were some people who taught and practiced that, but that is largely in the past. Even BYU, the church-owned school, now sells fully-caffeinated Coke on campus. This was a fairly recent development. As well, members are encouraged to avoid any media that includes sexually explicit, violent, or otherwise negative content -- not only avoiding R-rated movies. The church teaches that people should be careful about their media choices and consume media that enlightens or edifies, not just entertains. Active members of the church definitely vary in how they interpret that, of course. I do love your point about sacrificing some things and getting a community in return. I work as a software engineer and at the age of 25 I already have two kids. My wife and I definitely sacrifice for them, but I hope we can build a loving family that will give us social returns that are lifelong. Growing up, I had a large network of cousins and siblings that were closer to me than friends were. I know much of this is because of the influence of the church. It is also true that being a member gives you a network of people -- people are always around to help you move in and out, they're always there every Sunday, etc. Members are assigned "ministers", two people who check up on them, are officially assigned to love them, and report back to the leadership of each ward (congregation) regularly about any problems the people they minister to may have. All this in addition to the friendships that naturally form with people you see once a week. Sacrificing alcohol, swearing, and other things -- tithing, Sundays, a two year-mission -- seems like a small trade in comparison for the creation of relationships with people who love you and who you love in return.
- amrrs 7y ago
  You're right. It's all about how we set our values. Like for some perhaps spending B'day with the kids is more valuable for some (including my family) birthday is just another day in the month. Are younger generations in the age of social media who are eager to share their b'day celeb pics set their value right? That's a thing to be pondered upon.
- EdwardDiego 7y ago
  > Are those kids somehow missing out? According to my children who went from not celebrating birthdays to celebrating them - yes.
- lotsofpulp 7y ago
  I had immigrant parents who had to work all the time to build and grow their business, so I didn’t have birthdays and that kind of stuff. I don’t care about that kind of stuff at all, not to say that I hate it or anything. I haven’t studied other children, so I can only make statements about myself. The only negative of my childhood regarding the lack of birthdays and whatnot is the inability to feign excitement for others’ celebrations as much as might be expected, simply because I don’t care about it for myself in the first place. It probably has hampered my ability to socialize or make networking connections in some situations where I wasn’t able to fit in.
  - pergadad 7y ago
    Be happy that others are happy. That's the key to empathy and sharing the pleasure. You don't have to understand why they are happy, and you don't have to agree with the cause. But you can still find joy in the fact that others are feeling wonderful.
    - lotsofpulp 7y ago
      Yes, I wish I had learned that earlier.
  - tomp 7y ago
    I had a wonderful childhood (by normal standards) and my famiy celebrated all birthdays (includig mine)... but I still don’t care :)
- beamatronic 7y ago
  Yes, no, yes
- adrianN 7y ago
  If the children grow up in an environment that (unreasonably?) values birthdays then they'll (unreasonably?) resent that their parents weren't with them.
- danmaz74 7y ago
  A friend of mine was raised by his Jehovah's witnesses parents, and absolutely does resent this.
- WWLink 7y ago
  The town I grew up in had a chinese restaurant downtown, right where all the busses stopped at the end of their routes. My mom and I went there all the time, since it was one of our favorite places to eat. I knew most of their family lol - the kids would usually hang out and do their homework on one of the tables in the back next to the kitchen. Those scenarios are what you make of them. They're not always doom and gloom. :) Honestly I think a family business is a better situation than a draconican employer that expects one to devote their life to them.
dang 7y ago
"Please respond to the strongest plausible interpretation of what someone says, not a weaker one that's easier to criticize. Assume good faith." https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html (We detached this subthread from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20315373 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20315373)
- Dayshine 7y ago
  Huh, a flagged comment, that's a first, sorry. I was really responding to what I saw as the GP breaking other guidelines by not responding to the article, so I quoted the only relevant part of their comment and the appropriate part of the article. I suppose I should have flagged their comment instead if I thought it was bordering on off-topic?
  - dang 7y ago
    You should flag a comment if it's breaking the site guidelines, but it doesn't break the site guidelines to go off topic. Sometimes off-topic comments can be interesting. It's when they become generic tangents that they break the guidelines. If you reread https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html you'll see that that the line is drawn carefully that way. For example, someone sharing their personal experience about a marginally-related point may be off topic but isn't generic. But turning a thread like this into an argument about, say, the men's rights movement (as happened elsewhere)—that's generic and therefore breaks the guidelines. A less clear case is the subthread right here that goes into a long discussion about birthdays and Jehovah's Witnesses. That's pretty off topic, and crossing perilously toward religious flamewar. On the other hand, it was weird enough not to count as generic—except where it swerved into atheism vs. religion stuff at the end. What we're trying to avoid is getting sucked into the black holes of the hottest controversies that online forums can't seem to resist but that people never have anything new to say about. That's the purpose of the rule. On HN, the organizing principle is intellectual curiosity, and there's no curiosity in repetition.

EdwardDiego 7y ago

I agree in that regard, but the child had a father and grandparents actively involved in their lives. She may come to regret not building a closer relationship with her children in the future, but it sounds like the children have other loving adults in their lives so they'll do okay.

rayiner 7y ago

Americans assign a silly and unjustified sentimental value to things like birthday parties and school outings. Part of my wife’s family is Jehovah’s witnesses, who don’t even celebrate birthdays. Are those kids somehow missing out? Do you think the immigrant parents that own a Chinese restaurant open seven days a week make it to any of their kids school functions or camping trips? Are they being irreparably damaged?

jedberg 7y ago
> Do you think the immigrant parents that own a Chinese restaurant open seven days a week make it to any of their kids school functions or camping trips? Are they being irreparably damaged? Based on my experience going to college with a few kids like that, yes. They all resented their childhood and the fact that the only way to see their parents was to work in the restaurant.
- rayiner 7y ago
  Yet they’re in college. Their parents having prioritized work over their kids undoubtedly will allow those kids to live an immensely better life than they would have otherwise. There’s millions of people in the world that would trade places with them in a heartbeat. One of my fears is that my kids will learn these bad American ideas from media. I saw my daughter watching a Disney show (Bunk’d), where a high achieving Asian girl was telling her parents they “pushed her too hard.” No wonder China is eating our lunch.
  - harryh 7y ago
    Ironically, no matter how attentive of a parent you are, your daughter is in fact likely to pick up ideas like that from media, her friends, and the surrounding culture. Alas!
  - wishinghand 7y ago
    > No wonder China is eating our lunch! Slave like conditions can do that to a more moderate work-life balance culture.
    - rayiner 7y ago
      There is lot of room between “slave like conditions” and the modern American trend of decadent children and adolescents that live in a state of extended infancy well into their 20s. From 1948 to 2000, the teenage labor force participation rate was 45-55%. Since 2000 it has dropped dramatically, to just 35% last year.
      - barry-cotter 7y ago
        “Extended infancy”? Really? Protracted adolescence sure, a giant pointless distraction fine, a diversion from things you value, ok, but infancy? Infants and children do not take time off to find themselves, travel, take a career break or whatever in particular you don’t value about this American (and Western) cultural tendency. If you don’t want your children to do this what are you going to do about it? Help them get real jobs without going to college? Accelerate their paths into professional jobs by accelerating their academic careers? Because if you don’t do something out of the ordinary you’re going to get pretty much the same results as other people in your position.
skinnymuch 7y ago
I don’t know the complete details of Jehovah’s Witnesses. But then not celebrating birthdays along with not celebrating [almost] any other major fun holiday among things does seem to be a definite negative aspect. I’ve read if you accuse someone in the religion of abuse and the only thing you have is he said she said, then the accuser is essentially iced out and ostracized from their religious culture/society. This includes children. Unless I’m mistaken, it does seem like the Witnesses are having children miss out on what you stated and in general seem like a bad example to bring up. - For both parents working all the time, it is a negative for most children.
- barry-cotter 7y ago
  Witnesses miss out on birthdays, non Witnesses miss out on being a part of their community with the benefits and disadvantages that come with that. I’m not familiar with them but any demanding (and hence cohesive) religious community I’m aware of is it’s own social group, support network, family substitute if someone is sick or when somebody dies or just needs to move. Mormons celebrate birthdays but the adults have to give up alcohol, caffeine, swearing and R-rated movies. Communities are bundles of goods, they don’t come à la carte. Religious communities that demand nothing from their adherents other than weekly attendance and nothing else that is not appropriate to their social and class position like Unitarianism, Episcopalianism or Liberal Judaism wither because people wonder why they bother attending. Communities demand and give different things. Birthday parties seem a very small thing to give up if an actual community is what you get in return. Regarding accusations why should making accusations be costless? If you’re trying to drum someone out of a community and fail to bring convincing evidence they kick you out. It’s just a community deciding on its internal norms. The US legal system has different burdens of proof and punishments when it comes to slander but the US system is still available to them. Communities exist outside the state.
  - react_burger38 7y ago
    Small correction -- members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints (of which I am one) don't have to give up on caffeine. There were some people who taught and practiced that, but that is largely in the past. Even BYU, the church-owned school, now sells fully-caffeinated Coke on campus. This was a fairly recent development. As well, members are encouraged to avoid any media that includes sexually explicit, violent, or otherwise negative content -- not only avoiding R-rated movies. The church teaches that people should be careful about their media choices and consume media that enlightens or edifies, not just entertains. Active members of the church definitely vary in how they interpret that, of course. I do love your point about sacrificing some things and getting a community in return. I work as a software engineer and at the age of 25 I already have two kids. My wife and I definitely sacrifice for them, but I hope we can build a loving family that will give us social returns that are lifelong. Growing up, I had a large network of cousins and siblings that were closer to me than friends were. I know much of this is because of the influence of the church. It is also true that being a member gives you a network of people -- people are always around to help you move in and out, they're always there every Sunday, etc. Members are assigned "ministers", two people who check up on them, are officially assigned to love them, and report back to the leadership of each ward (congregation) regularly about any problems the people they minister to may have. All this in addition to the friendships that naturally form with people you see once a week. Sacrificing alcohol, swearing, and other things -- tithing, Sundays, a two year-mission -- seems like a small trade in comparison for the creation of relationships with people who love you and who you love in return.
amrrs 7y ago
You're right. It's all about how we set our values. Like for some perhaps spending B'day with the kids is more valuable for some (including my family) birthday is just another day in the month. Are younger generations in the age of social media who are eager to share their b'day celeb pics set their value right? That's a thing to be pondered upon.
EdwardDiego 7y ago
> Are those kids somehow missing out? According to my children who went from not celebrating birthdays to celebrating them - yes.
lotsofpulp 7y ago
I had immigrant parents who had to work all the time to build and grow their business, so I didn’t have birthdays and that kind of stuff. I don’t care about that kind of stuff at all, not to say that I hate it or anything. I haven’t studied other children, so I can only make statements about myself. The only negative of my childhood regarding the lack of birthdays and whatnot is the inability to feign excitement for others’ celebrations as much as might be expected, simply because I don’t care about it for myself in the first place. It probably has hampered my ability to socialize or make networking connections in some situations where I wasn’t able to fit in.
- pergadad 7y ago
  Be happy that others are happy. That's the key to empathy and sharing the pleasure. You don't have to understand why they are happy, and you don't have to agree with the cause. But you can still find joy in the fact that others are feeling wonderful.
  - lotsofpulp 7y ago
    Yes, I wish I had learned that earlier.
- tomp 7y ago
  I had a wonderful childhood (by normal standards) and my famiy celebrated all birthdays (includig mine)... but I still don’t care :)
beamatronic 7y ago
Yes, no, yes
adrianN 7y ago
If the children grow up in an environment that (unreasonably?) values birthdays then they'll (unreasonably?) resent that their parents weren't with them.
danmaz74 7y ago
A friend of mine was raised by his Jehovah's witnesses parents, and absolutely does resent this.
WWLink 7y ago
The town I grew up in had a chinese restaurant downtown, right where all the busses stopped at the end of their routes. My mom and I went there all the time, since it was one of our favorite places to eat. I knew most of their family lol - the kids would usually hang out and do their homework on one of the tables in the back next to the kitchen. Those scenarios are what you make of them. They're not always doom and gloom. :) Honestly I think a family business is a better situation than a draconican employer that expects one to devote their life to them.

dang 7y ago

"Please respond to the strongest plausible interpretation of what someone says, not a weaker one that's easier to criticize. Assume good faith." https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html (We detached this subthread from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20315373 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20315373)

Dayshine 7y ago
Huh, a flagged comment, that's a first, sorry. I was really responding to what I saw as the GP breaking other guidelines by not responding to the article, so I quoted the only relevant part of their comment and the appropriate part of the article. I suppose I should have flagged their comment instead if I thought it was bordering on off-topic?
- dang 7y ago
  You should flag a comment if it's breaking the site guidelines, but it doesn't break the site guidelines to go off topic. Sometimes off-topic comments can be interesting. It's when they become generic tangents that they break the guidelines. If you reread https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html you'll see that that the line is drawn carefully that way. For example, someone sharing their personal experience about a marginally-related point may be off topic but isn't generic. But turning a thread like this into an argument about, say, the men's rights movement (as happened elsewhere)—that's generic and therefore breaks the guidelines. A less clear case is the subthread right here that goes into a long discussion about birthdays and Jehovah's Witnesses. That's pretty off topic, and crossing perilously toward religious flamewar. On the other hand, it was weird enough not to count as generic—except where it swerved into atheism vs. religion stuff at the end. What we're trying to avoid is getting sucked into the black holes of the hottest controversies that online forums can't seem to resist but that people never have anything new to say about. That's the purpose of the rule. On HN, the organizing principle is intellectual curiosity, and there's no curiosity in repetition.