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It'd be nice to compare the effects of HPP vs Pasteurization in milk, and whether it less disruptive. Pasteurized milk doesn't ferment as well as raw milk, sug

by nextos 7y ago

It'd be nice to compare the effects of HPP vs Pasteurization in milk, and whether it less disruptive. Pasteurized milk doesn't ferment as well as raw milk, suggesting lots of peptides are altered. And that is why some cheese DOPs mandate raw milk (only on hard cheeses, as on soft ones it'd not be safe).

arcticbull 7y ago
Fermentation is largely a product of naturally occurring bacteria is it not? Makes sense pasteurizing it and killing them all would prevent fermentation, which in this case would just be referred to as spoiling.
- nextos 7y ago
  Absolutely, but if you add plenty of starters to pasteurized milk you can get nice fermentation. That's what most cheese producers do. Pasteurize and then ferment. What I meant is that differences arising in fermentation processes of raw vs pasteurized milk may not be just due to the microbial populations present before adding more microbial starters. But also because pasteurization "damages" some proteins and lipids, which can't be subsequently processed by bacteria.
- URSpider94 7y ago
  No, I think the point here is that even if you inoculate pasteurized milk with microbes, which you typically do in cheese- or yogurt-making to ensure that you grow the species you want, they still don’t grow as well nor produce the same end product.
  - amluto 7y ago
    When I make yogurt, I usually hold the milk at a high temperature (> 180F) for a while first — it improves the final texture. Raw is not necessarily better.
semi-extrinsic 7y ago
> only on hard cheeses, as on soft ones it'd not be safe Actually that's not true. This is pretty much only a thing in the US. All across Europe you can get soft unpasteurized cheeses in any large supermarket with a good cheese selection. Stuff like Brie de Meaux, Reblochon, or the Belgian Herve, or even proper Camembert falls in this category.
- nextos 7y ago
  Yes, but I meant softer than those and with much shorter fermentation times. You can't get unpasteurized mozzarella or feta. Or it must be really rare as I think it's gonna be really hard to meet pathogenic bacteria counts on every batch without astronomically expensive QC.
  - semi-extrinsic 7y ago
    Yes, you can get unpasteurized mozzarella, it is really delicious. Look, in Europe you can buy a type of cheese called casu marzu - literally "rotten cheese" - where during fermentation, they cut a hole in the top and leave it outside, so that a special type of fly comes and lays eggs in the cheese. When these eggs hatch, the cheese becomes filled with larvae who crawl through the cheese and digest it, as part of the ripening process. When you buy it, it's still full of crawling larvae. My point is, in Europe we make a lot of really weird cheeses. Mostly people survive.
    - mercer 7y ago
      "Because of European Union food hygiene-health regulations, the cheese has been outlawed, and offenders face heavy fines" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casu_marzu https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casu_marzu
KozmoNau7 7y ago
Pasteurizing is an integral part of the cooking/preparation of some foods, they won't taste right without it. The best example I have (since it's local to me) is Cocio chocolate milk. It has three ingredients: milk, cocoa and sugar. If you just mix those together in the right proportions, it does taste okay, but nowhere near what Cocio is supposed to taste like. To get the right taste, the chocolate milk is boiled in the bottle for ~30 minutes, which caramelizes some of the sugars, and then it has to sit for around a week to mature. I consider myself a bit of a chocolate milk aficionado, and in my opinion, no other chocolate milk comes even close to that taste and feel.

by nextos 7y ago

arcticbull 7y ago

Fermentation is largely a product of naturally occurring bacteria is it not? Makes sense pasteurizing it and killing them all would prevent fermentation, which in this case would just be referred to as spoiling.

nextos 7y ago
Absolutely, but if you add plenty of starters to pasteurized milk you can get nice fermentation. That's what most cheese producers do. Pasteurize and then ferment. What I meant is that differences arising in fermentation processes of raw vs pasteurized milk may not be just due to the microbial populations present before adding more microbial starters. But also because pasteurization "damages" some proteins and lipids, which can't be subsequently processed by bacteria.
URSpider94 7y ago
No, I think the point here is that even if you inoculate pasteurized milk with microbes, which you typically do in cheese- or yogurt-making to ensure that you grow the species you want, they still don’t grow as well nor produce the same end product.
- amluto 7y ago
  When I make yogurt, I usually hold the milk at a high temperature (> 180F) for a while first — it improves the final texture. Raw is not necessarily better.

semi-extrinsic 7y ago

> only on hard cheeses, as on soft ones it'd not be safe Actually that's not true. This is pretty much only a thing in the US. All across Europe you can get soft unpasteurized cheeses in any large supermarket with a good cheese selection. Stuff like Brie de Meaux, Reblochon, or the Belgian Herve, or even proper Camembert falls in this category.

nextos 7y ago
Yes, but I meant softer than those and with much shorter fermentation times. You can't get unpasteurized mozzarella or feta. Or it must be really rare as I think it's gonna be really hard to meet pathogenic bacteria counts on every batch without astronomically expensive QC.
- semi-extrinsic 7y ago
  Yes, you can get unpasteurized mozzarella, it is really delicious. Look, in Europe you can buy a type of cheese called casu marzu - literally "rotten cheese" - where during fermentation, they cut a hole in the top and leave it outside, so that a special type of fly comes and lays eggs in the cheese. When these eggs hatch, the cheese becomes filled with larvae who crawl through the cheese and digest it, as part of the ripening process. When you buy it, it's still full of crawling larvae. My point is, in Europe we make a lot of really weird cheeses. Mostly people survive.
  - mercer 7y ago
    "Because of European Union food hygiene-health regulations, the cheese has been outlawed, and offenders face heavy fines" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casu_marzu https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casu_marzu

KozmoNau7 7y ago

Pasteurizing is an integral part of the cooking/preparation of some foods, they won't taste right without it. The best example I have (since it's local to me) is Cocio chocolate milk. It has three ingredients: milk, cocoa and sugar. If you just mix those together in the right proportions, it does taste okay, but nowhere near what Cocio is supposed to taste like. To get the right taste, the chocolate milk is boiled in the bottle for ~30 minutes, which caramelizes some of the sugars, and then it has to sit for around a week to mature. I consider myself a bit of a chocolate milk aficionado, and in my opinion, no other chocolate milk comes even close to that taste and feel.