3 ms·

It’s also possible that he formed his opinion based on the context of 20 years ago which has since changed into the reality we have today... Discourses become

It’s also possible that he formed his opinion based on the context of 20 years ago which has since changed into the reality we have today... Discourses become much nicer when we don’t make/take such explicitly negative angles which are rife with hostile undertones.

sk0g 7y ago
"Kernel written in C++... The horror." What kind of discourse is that leading to? It's just an unqualified, unsubstantiated attack on serious work undertaken by presumably top quality engineers.
- dodobirdlord 7y ago
  In fairness though, it's kinda the stance taken by top quality engineers themselves when faced with the prospect of writing a kernel in C++. The Google C++ style guide is pretty rigid, and is pretty upfront about the fact that the rigidity is in the interest of not allowing Google C++ projects to devolve into the mess that consumes most large C++ projects.[0] Linus Torvalds has in the past said some pretty unkind things about the idea of doing kernel development in C++.[1] Finally, Fuchsia's kernel Zircon is a microkernel. The engineers involved have elected not to attempt to write a monolithic kernel in C++ probably in part for the reasons that Torvalds described. Things like filesystems, drivers, and the networking stack are outside of the Zircon kernel in the Garnet layer and are implemented in languages like Rust (filesystems, drivers) and Go (the networking stack). [0]https://google.github.io/styleguide/cppguide.html https://google.github.io/styleguide/cppguide.html [1]http://harmful.cat-v.org/software/c++/linus http://harmful.cat-v.org/software/c++/linus
  - pjmlp 7y ago
    Plenty of top quality engineers write kernel code in C++ every day. His baby would be nowhere without the contribution of the likes of IBM, Compaq, Oracle and many other nameless contributors. Linus opinion is his opinion, that is all.
    - z3phyr 7y ago
      @pjmlp I am going to hijack this and ask you somewhat off topic question: Most of the OS books teach in a very Unix centered way. Can you recommend some books or resources which describe non-C non-Unixy Operating Systems? I really liked the Blue Book of Smalltalk, and looking for more!
      - pjmlp 7y ago
        Sure. - MacOS (pre-OS X) "Revolution in the Valley" https://www.amazon.com/Revolution-Valley-Insanely-Great-Story/dp/1449316247 https://www.amazon.com/Revolution-Valley-Insanely-Great-Stor... http://basalgangster.macgui.com/RetroMacComputing/The_Long_View/The_Long_View.html http://basalgangster.macgui.com/RetroMacComputing/The_Long_V... - NeXTSTEP / Mac OS X Debatable about non-C non-Unixy part, but it surely isn't the focus of the whole stack. "Mac OS X Internals: A Systems Approach" https://www.amazon.com/Mac-OS-Internals-Approach-paperback/dp/0134426541 https://www.amazon.com/Mac-OS-Internals-Approach-paperback/d... http://www.nextop.de/NeXTstep_3.3_Developer_Documentation/ http://www.nextop.de/NeXTstep_3.3_Developer_Documentation/ - Oberon and its derivatives (1992 and 2013 versions, System 3, Insight ETHOS and A2) https://inf.ethz.ch/personal/wirth/ https://inf.ethz.ch/personal/wirth/ https://inf.ethz.ch/personal/wirth/ProjectOberon/index.html https://inf.ethz.ch/personal/wirth/ProjectOberon/index.html http://www.projectoberon.com/ http://www.projectoberon.com/ http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.472.5256&rep=rep1&type=pdf http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.472... http://www.ocp.inf.ethz.ch/wiki/Documentation/Front http://www.ocp.inf.ethz.ch/wiki/Documentation/Front https://www.research-collection.ethz.ch/handle/20.500.11850/140827 https://www.research-collection.ethz.ch/handle/20.500.11850/... - Symbian "Symbian OS Internals: Real-time Kernel Programming" https://www.amazon.com/Symbian-OS-Internals-Real-time-Programming-ebook/dp/B000SMY1XC/ref=sr_1_1 https://www.amazon.com/Symbian-OS-Internals-Real-time-Progra... "Symbian OS Platform Security: Software Development Using the Symbian OS Security Architecture" https://www.amazon.com/Symbian-Platform-Security-Development-Architecture/dp/0470018828/ref=sr_1_14 https://www.amazon.com/Symbian-Platform-Security-Development... "The Symbian OS Architecture Sourcebook: Design and Evolution of a Mobile Phone OS" https://www.amazon.com/Symbian-OS-Architecture-Sourcebook-Evolution/dp/0470018461/ref=sr_1_15 https://www.amazon.com/Symbian-OS-Architecture-Sourcebook-Ev... - Mesa and Mesa/Cedar http://www.digibarn.com/friends/curbow/star/XDEPaper.pdf http://www.digibarn.com/friends/curbow/star/XDEPaper.pdf http://worrydream.com/refs/Teitelman%20-%20The%20Cedar%20Programming%20Environment,%20A%20Midterm%20Report%20and%20Examination.pdf http://worrydream.com/refs/Teitelman%20-%20The%20Cedar%20Pro... - JX http://www4.cs.fau.de/Projects/JX/ http://www4.cs.fau.de/Projects/JX/ - SPIN OS http://www-spin.cs.washington.edu/external/overview.html http://www-spin.cs.washington.edu/external/overview.html - Singularity, https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/research/project/singularity/#!publications https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/research/project/singularity... https://channel9.msdn.com/Shows/Going+Deep/Singularity-A-research-OS-written-in-C https://channel9.msdn.com/Shows/Going+Deep/Singularity-A-res... https://channel9.msdn.com/Shows/Going+Deep/Singularity-Revisited https://channel9.msdn.com/Shows/Going+Deep/Singularity-Revis... - Barrelfish https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/research/project/barrelfish/#!publications https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/research/project/barrelfish/... - Midori, http://joeduffyblog.com/2015/11/03/blogging-about-midori/ http://joeduffyblog.com/2015/11/03/blogging-about-midori/ https://www.infoq.com/presentations/csharp-systems-programming/ https://www.infoq.com/presentations/csharp-systems-programmi... "RustConf 2017 - Closing Keynote: Safe Systems Software and the Future of Computing" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EVm938gMWl0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EVm938gMWl0 "While never reaching commercial release, at one time Midori powered all of Microsoft’s natural language search service for the West Coast and Asia." Source: https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/research/project/singularity/ https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/research/project/singularity... - Helios https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/research/wp-content/uploads/2016/02/helios.pdf https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/research/wp-content/uploads/... - Muen https://muen.codelabs.ch/ https://muen.codelabs.ch/ - GenodeOS https://genode.org/documentation/index https://genode.org/documentation/index - Inferno http://www.vitanuova.com/inferno/docs.html http://www.vitanuova.com/inferno/docs.html - Minix 3 https://wiki.minix3.org/doku.php?id=www:documentation:start https://wiki.minix3.org/doku.php?id=www:documentation:start - BeOS "Be Developer's Guide" https://www.amazon.com/Be-Developers-Guide-Development-Team/dp/1565922875 https://www.amazon.com/Be-Developers-Guide-Development-Team/... "Be Advanced Topics" https://www.amazon.com/Be-Advanced-Topics-Development-Team/dp/1565923960 https://www.amazon.com/Be-Advanced-Topics-Development-Team/d... - Windows https://www.amazon.de/Windows-Internals-Part-Pavel-Yosifovich/dp/0735684189 https://www.amazon.de/Windows-Internals-Part-Pavel-Yosifovic... https://www.amazon.de/Windows-Internals-Part-Mark-Russinovich/dp/0135462401 https://www.amazon.de/Windows-Internals-Part-Mark-Russinovic... https://channel9.msdn.com/Shows/Going+Deep/Rob-Short-and-kernel-team-Going-deep-inside-Windows-Vistas-kernel-architecture https://channel9.msdn.com/Shows/Going+Deep/Rob-Short-and-ker... https://channel9.msdn.com/Shows/Going+Deep/Doron-Holan-Kernel-Mode-Driver-Framework https://channel9.msdn.com/Shows/Going+Deep/Doron-Holan-Kerne... https://channel9.msdn.com/Events/Build/2012/3-005 https://channel9.msdn.com/Events/Build/2012/3-005 Not everything by a long shot, plenty more to re-discover like VMS,IBM i and Z, Unisys ClearPath, mbed,... Just keep an open mind and don't idolatrize UNIX, yes it has a couple of good ideas, but they don't make it the be all end all of OS design.

sk0g 7y ago

"Kernel written in C++... The horror." What kind of discourse is that leading to? It's just an unqualified, unsubstantiated attack on serious work undertaken by presumably top quality engineers.

dodobirdlord 7y ago
In fairness though, it's kinda the stance taken by top quality engineers themselves when faced with the prospect of writing a kernel in C++. The Google C++ style guide is pretty rigid, and is pretty upfront about the fact that the rigidity is in the interest of not allowing Google C++ projects to devolve into the mess that consumes most large C++ projects.[0] Linus Torvalds has in the past said some pretty unkind things about the idea of doing kernel development in C++.[1] Finally, Fuchsia's kernel Zircon is a microkernel. The engineers involved have elected not to attempt to write a monolithic kernel in C++ probably in part for the reasons that Torvalds described. Things like filesystems, drivers, and the networking stack are outside of the Zircon kernel in the Garnet layer and are implemented in languages like Rust (filesystems, drivers) and Go (the networking stack). [0]https://google.github.io/styleguide/cppguide.html https://google.github.io/styleguide/cppguide.html [1]http://harmful.cat-v.org/software/c++/linus http://harmful.cat-v.org/software/c++/linus
- pjmlp 7y ago
  Plenty of top quality engineers write kernel code in C++ every day. His baby would be nowhere without the contribution of the likes of IBM, Compaq, Oracle and many other nameless contributors. Linus opinion is his opinion, that is all.
  - z3phyr 7y ago
    @pjmlp I am going to hijack this and ask you somewhat off topic question: Most of the OS books teach in a very Unix centered way. Can you recommend some books or resources which describe non-C non-Unixy Operating Systems? I really liked the Blue Book of Smalltalk, and looking for more!
    - pjmlp 7y ago
      Sure. - MacOS (pre-OS X) "Revolution in the Valley" https://www.amazon.com/Revolution-Valley-Insanely-Great-Story/dp/1449316247 https://www.amazon.com/Revolution-Valley-Insanely-Great-Stor... http://basalgangster.macgui.com/RetroMacComputing/The_Long_View/The_Long_View.html http://basalgangster.macgui.com/RetroMacComputing/The_Long_V... - NeXTSTEP / Mac OS X Debatable about non-C non-Unixy part, but it surely isn't the focus of the whole stack. "Mac OS X Internals: A Systems Approach" https://www.amazon.com/Mac-OS-Internals-Approach-paperback/dp/0134426541 https://www.amazon.com/Mac-OS-Internals-Approach-paperback/d... http://www.nextop.de/NeXTstep_3.3_Developer_Documentation/ http://www.nextop.de/NeXTstep_3.3_Developer_Documentation/ - Oberon and its derivatives (1992 and 2013 versions, System 3, Insight ETHOS and A2) https://inf.ethz.ch/personal/wirth/ https://inf.ethz.ch/personal/wirth/ https://inf.ethz.ch/personal/wirth/ProjectOberon/index.html https://inf.ethz.ch/personal/wirth/ProjectOberon/index.html http://www.projectoberon.com/ http://www.projectoberon.com/ http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.472.5256&rep=rep1&type=pdf http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.472... http://www.ocp.inf.ethz.ch/wiki/Documentation/Front http://www.ocp.inf.ethz.ch/wiki/Documentation/Front https://www.research-collection.ethz.ch/handle/20.500.11850/140827 https://www.research-collection.ethz.ch/handle/20.500.11850/... - Symbian "Symbian OS Internals: Real-time Kernel Programming" https://www.amazon.com/Symbian-OS-Internals-Real-time-Programming-ebook/dp/B000SMY1XC/ref=sr_1_1 https://www.amazon.com/Symbian-OS-Internals-Real-time-Progra... "Symbian OS Platform Security: Software Development Using the Symbian OS Security Architecture" https://www.amazon.com/Symbian-Platform-Security-Development-Architecture/dp/0470018828/ref=sr_1_14 https://www.amazon.com/Symbian-Platform-Security-Development... "The Symbian OS Architecture Sourcebook: Design and Evolution of a Mobile Phone OS" https://www.amazon.com/Symbian-OS-Architecture-Sourcebook-Evolution/dp/0470018461/ref=sr_1_15 https://www.amazon.com/Symbian-OS-Architecture-Sourcebook-Ev... - Mesa and Mesa/Cedar http://www.digibarn.com/friends/curbow/star/XDEPaper.pdf http://www.digibarn.com/friends/curbow/star/XDEPaper.pdf http://worrydream.com/refs/Teitelman%20-%20The%20Cedar%20Programming%20Environment,%20A%20Midterm%20Report%20and%20Examination.pdf http://worrydream.com/refs/Teitelman%20-%20The%20Cedar%20Pro... - JX http://www4.cs.fau.de/Projects/JX/ http://www4.cs.fau.de/Projects/JX/ - SPIN OS http://www-spin.cs.washington.edu/external/overview.html http://www-spin.cs.washington.edu/external/overview.html - Singularity, https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/research/project/singularity/#!publications https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/research/project/singularity... https://channel9.msdn.com/Shows/Going+Deep/Singularity-A-research-OS-written-in-C https://channel9.msdn.com/Shows/Going+Deep/Singularity-A-res... https://channel9.msdn.com/Shows/Going+Deep/Singularity-Revisited https://channel9.msdn.com/Shows/Going+Deep/Singularity-Revis... - Barrelfish https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/research/project/barrelfish/#!publications https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/research/project/barrelfish/... - Midori, http://joeduffyblog.com/2015/11/03/blogging-about-midori/ http://joeduffyblog.com/2015/11/03/blogging-about-midori/ https://www.infoq.com/presentations/csharp-systems-programming/ https://www.infoq.com/presentations/csharp-systems-programmi... "RustConf 2017 - Closing Keynote: Safe Systems Software and the Future of Computing" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EVm938gMWl0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EVm938gMWl0 "While never reaching commercial release, at one time Midori powered all of Microsoft’s natural language search service for the West Coast and Asia." Source: https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/research/project/singularity/ https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/research/project/singularity... - Helios https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/research/wp-content/uploads/2016/02/helios.pdf https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/research/wp-content/uploads/... - Muen https://muen.codelabs.ch/ https://muen.codelabs.ch/ - GenodeOS https://genode.org/documentation/index https://genode.org/documentation/index - Inferno http://www.vitanuova.com/inferno/docs.html http://www.vitanuova.com/inferno/docs.html - Minix 3 https://wiki.minix3.org/doku.php?id=www:documentation:start https://wiki.minix3.org/doku.php?id=www:documentation:start - BeOS "Be Developer's Guide" https://www.amazon.com/Be-Developers-Guide-Development-Team/dp/1565922875 https://www.amazon.com/Be-Developers-Guide-Development-Team/... "Be Advanced Topics" https://www.amazon.com/Be-Advanced-Topics-Development-Team/dp/1565923960 https://www.amazon.com/Be-Advanced-Topics-Development-Team/d... - Windows https://www.amazon.de/Windows-Internals-Part-Pavel-Yosifovich/dp/0735684189 https://www.amazon.de/Windows-Internals-Part-Pavel-Yosifovic... https://www.amazon.de/Windows-Internals-Part-Mark-Russinovich/dp/0135462401 https://www.amazon.de/Windows-Internals-Part-Mark-Russinovic... https://channel9.msdn.com/Shows/Going+Deep/Rob-Short-and-kernel-team-Going-deep-inside-Windows-Vistas-kernel-architecture https://channel9.msdn.com/Shows/Going+Deep/Rob-Short-and-ker... https://channel9.msdn.com/Shows/Going+Deep/Doron-Holan-Kernel-Mode-Driver-Framework https://channel9.msdn.com/Shows/Going+Deep/Doron-Holan-Kerne... https://channel9.msdn.com/Events/Build/2012/3-005 https://channel9.msdn.com/Events/Build/2012/3-005 Not everything by a long shot, plenty more to re-discover like VMS,IBM i and Z, Unisys ClearPath, mbed,... Just keep an open mind and don't idolatrize UNIX, yes it has a couple of good ideas, but they don't make it the be all end all of OS design.