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You sound suspiciously like every other outsourcer I’ve worked with who breaks something critical. A million reasons why it wasn’t their fault. They did exactly

You sound suspiciously like every other outsourcer I’ve worked with who breaks something critical. A million reasons why it wasn’t their fault. They did exactly what they were told right and didn’t take one second to validate the assumptions surrounding the systematic nature of the solution. The goal, the mission, the end state solution. That was another departments concern right. That was QA’s concern, that was designs concern, that was the testing center of excellence’s concern. Blame them. The perfect circle of siloed fiefdoms and no feedback blame. The problem is that lives were at stake here on this one and the entire house of cards is coming crashing down if this is determined to be true. There will be public outcry and no matter how many excuses you have the fact is families and lives have been ruined FOREVER, NOTHING ON THIS EARTH CAN REPLACE THEM and something must be done. https://qualitysafety.bmj.com/content/13/suppl_2/ii22 https://qualitysafety.bmj.com/content/13/suppl_2/ii22

dang 7y ago
Could you please not cross into personal attack? and also please not post in the flamewar style? These are things we're trying to avoid on HN. The site guidelines explain, and if you'd read them and stick to the rules, we'd be grateful: https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html.
danielg6 7y ago
I do think it’s weird that the parent post started out by saying the sensors were designed to spec, but is he wrong? The article even said as much. (Not MCAS though.) I didn’t read it as an excuse. It seems like you’re saying that outsourced devs should have as much accountability as home-based devs or the entity Boeing itself. I don’t agree with this. The salary does not reflect that. The work that’s assigned does not reflect that. Anecdotally working with outsourced devs and based from the comments here, no one honestly thinks that. It seems like you were triggered by the “excuses” part of the post. But what about the rest of it? He made a valid point (which I think you proved) about people using the article to discriminate. I guess I’m just wondering why you’re making generalizations. I’ve worked with many devs (who weren’t outsourced) who blame everyone else but themselves. I learned to use ‘git blame’ very early on.
- gotdevops 7y ago
  It’s a very interesting point. I’ve worked with some very skilled devs from HCL. I’ve also seen them turn over to other firms because of salary and other firm related issues. I don’t think that piece has anything or very little to do with the fact that they are Indian. However the organizational culture is definitely flawed and it does appear to be more prevalent in large fixed bid outsourcing arrangements. I’ve witnessed it first hand being brought in to resolve issues created by the outsourcer on projects as large as 1/2bn. They difference between those projects is the mission. Those project were critical on a financial basis. This was and aircraft with peoples life’s on the line. No one dev or otherwise can say they didn’t know this code was going on an airplane. No matter their salary.
  - danielg6 7y ago
    Thanks. I thought your first post was very emotional and didn’t align with the truth of the situation, which is why I felt the need to reply. You’re right in that the primary focus of the article was not the outsourced devs being Indian. The issue comes from how people respond to such articles, no matter the article’s intention. I’m not saying that outsourced devs shouldn’t be held accountable for any faults. The point is that there are different degrees of accountability for all parties involved. The article only chose to focus on one of these groups, which is fine. What’s not fine is HN comments that seem to not realize this. No matter the salary or experience or contract, outsourced devs/companies shouldn’t be in a position of power to break critical systems on an airplane. (I’m not saying this is what happened with the Max.)
mannykannot 7y ago
In your world, Boeing designed (and the FAA endorsed) MCAS to use only one sensor and made it dangerously powerful, yet the crashes are the coders' fault for being the ones who did not anticipate the problems this would cause.

dang 7y ago

Could you please not cross into personal attack? and also please not post in the flamewar style? These are things we're trying to avoid on HN. The site guidelines explain, and if you'd read them and stick to the rules, we'd be grateful: https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html.

danielg6 7y ago

I do think it’s weird that the parent post started out by saying the sensors were designed to spec, but is he wrong? The article even said as much. (Not MCAS though.) I didn’t read it as an excuse. It seems like you’re saying that outsourced devs should have as much accountability as home-based devs or the entity Boeing itself. I don’t agree with this. The salary does not reflect that. The work that’s assigned does not reflect that. Anecdotally working with outsourced devs and based from the comments here, no one honestly thinks that. It seems like you were triggered by the “excuses” part of the post. But what about the rest of it? He made a valid point (which I think you proved) about people using the article to discriminate. I guess I’m just wondering why you’re making generalizations. I’ve worked with many devs (who weren’t outsourced) who blame everyone else but themselves. I learned to use ‘git blame’ very early on.

gotdevops 7y ago
It’s a very interesting point. I’ve worked with some very skilled devs from HCL. I’ve also seen them turn over to other firms because of salary and other firm related issues. I don’t think that piece has anything or very little to do with the fact that they are Indian. However the organizational culture is definitely flawed and it does appear to be more prevalent in large fixed bid outsourcing arrangements. I’ve witnessed it first hand being brought in to resolve issues created by the outsourcer on projects as large as 1/2bn. They difference between those projects is the mission. Those project were critical on a financial basis. This was and aircraft with peoples life’s on the line. No one dev or otherwise can say they didn’t know this code was going on an airplane. No matter their salary.
- danielg6 7y ago
  Thanks. I thought your first post was very emotional and didn’t align with the truth of the situation, which is why I felt the need to reply. You’re right in that the primary focus of the article was not the outsourced devs being Indian. The issue comes from how people respond to such articles, no matter the article’s intention. I’m not saying that outsourced devs shouldn’t be held accountable for any faults. The point is that there are different degrees of accountability for all parties involved. The article only chose to focus on one of these groups, which is fine. What’s not fine is HN comments that seem to not realize this. No matter the salary or experience or contract, outsourced devs/companies shouldn’t be in a position of power to break critical systems on an airplane. (I’m not saying this is what happened with the Max.)

mannykannot 7y ago

In your world, Boeing designed (and the FAA endorsed) MCAS to use only one sensor and made it dangerously powerful, yet the crashes are the coders' fault for being the ones who did not anticipate the problems this would cause.