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> classic example are laptops that dynamically switch between discrete and integrated graphics YMMV, but as far as I know that's more or less a solved problem

> classic example are laptops that dynamically switch between discrete and integrated graphics YMMV, but as far as I know that's more or less a solved problem by default (for X anyway) with DRI3. This particular complaint echoes folks (I was one) who booted Ubuntu desktop a decade ago and couldn't get wifi to work, and proceeded to complain about shoddy driver support (to present day, clearly), using only that single outdated* example as an argument. Of course this is compounded by a ~months to ~years delay in most desktops getting those improvements thanks to the glacial pace at which the mainstream desktop distros update their repos. Was there a point when Optimus/Bumblebee/Prime was a shitshow? Yes. Is that still reality? No. What this ignores is that Linux driver support is generally fantastic, works out of the box in a way that desktop architects at MS dream about and is infinitely more current in practice since you go to one place to update all your software, including driver software, something MS hasn't been able to get right in a decade of trying. Regardless, mobile battery life's still worse on Linux. And as much as some things are super convenient compared to the Windows/Apple world, the truism a friend told me as I wrestled with Ubuntu ten years ago remains true today: Linux is for folks that enjoy configuring Linux. * I have to use a combo of DKMS and an AUR package to get WiFi on my one year old IdeaPad, so outdated may be the wrong word there. Better to say that realtek and broadcom chips have gotten hit hard by Intel's move into consumer networking. Worth pointing out that 'year of the Linux desktop' probably predates that.

Osiris 7y ago
I spent a lot of time trying to get dynamic switching working and after countless hours I gave up. Optimus is definitely not a "solved problem", unless you know some method I didn't find in my dozens of hours of googling how to get it to work on a system76 laptop (Linux preinstalled) and a 2012 MacBook.
- ndarwincorn 7y ago
  The "solved problem" is using the kernel implementation of muxless hybrid graphics (PRIME), not Nvidia's proprietary one (Optimus).
  - StudentStuff 7y ago
    Yeah, the "happy path" here is applicable if you don't attempt to install janky/poorly maintained proprietary out of tree drivers. The reason these drivers are out of tree is usually due to either serious hardware flaws, incompetent/inept vendors, or a combination of both. AMD has (in large part) fixed this by reusing the kernel shim from AMDGPU (open source & mainlined in kernel) for their proprietary driver (AMDGPU-Pro). Nvidia meanwhile has stated they will not support Wayland, and has sandbagged the integration of their Linux Kernel patches for their single board computers (like the ones that are used in Tesla's cars). They don't give a fuck if their clients are stuck on broken, insecure BSPs, and frankly they operate as a malicious vendor: https://www.theregister.co.uk/2018/01/03/nvidia_server_gpus/ https://www.theregister.co.uk/2018/01/03/nvidia_server_gpus/
    - jeremyjh 7y ago
      Yes, Nvidia provides terrible support for Linux, but it doesn't matter whose fault it is. That is the basis of many, many complaints about drivers for Linux. Nvidia ships in a great many laptops. If Nvidia sucks on linux, linux has a problem with drivers, full stop.
dingu 7y ago
> YMMV, but as far as I know that's more or less a solved problem by default (for X anyway) with DRI3. https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/NVIDIA_Optimus https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/NVIDIA_Optimus LOL. What a bunch of crap.
- ndarwincorn 7y ago
  If you're gonna reference the wiki, cite the right article[1]. Under the 'GPU Offloading' heading (the feature most folks want in dual discrete/integrated laptops): > Note: This setting is no longer necessary when using the default intel/modesetting driver from the official repos, as they have DRI3 enabled by default and will therefore automatically make these assignments. Explicitly setting them again does no harm, though. I had to do nothing out of the box to have a working PRIME setup on my work laptop over a year ago, and I'd never used a laptop with discrete graphics prior. My only driver issue was with DisplayLink (proprietary), where I had to pin xorg because it wasn't compatible with 1.19. [1] https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/PRIME https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/PRIME
  - robrtsql 7y ago
    Most people want to use the proprietary drivers, because nouveau's performance is prohibitively low for gaming. And that only supports switching GPUs with a reboot. It does work, but it's not very nice, which is what we are upset about.
    - StudentStuff 7y ago
      Choose a vendor that isn't actively fighting the OS they sell and support if you want your hardware to work as expected: https://www.theregister.co.uk/2018/01/03/nvidia_server_gpus/ https://www.theregister.co.uk/2018/01/03/nvidia_server_gpus/ eGPUs in a laptop format is a bit silly, you sacrifice the mobility of the laptop to get a very cut down discrete mobile GPU. AMD has started to eat this market alive due to the performance per watt advantage: https://redd.it/bc5hkg https://redd.it/bc5hkg Consumers are much more likely to bring a sub-5lb HP x360 everywhere than a bulky 8+lb laptop.
tjoff 7y ago
I'm not sure how the bubble you live in came to be but for ordinary desktop/laptop hardware that is as false as can be. And there is a very simple reason for that. All desktop PCs and laptops are sold with windows, if no support exist the hardware as a whole will not exist. Meanwhile in linux land I still can't use my three monitors because displayport MST doesn't work with the open source AMD driver. Support has existed for quite a while, but it seems none of the five people on the internet that have actually tried it has gotten it to work. Just one of the many driver issues I currently have on a couple of machines with linux. > YMMV, but as far as I know that's more or less a solved problem by default (for X anyway) with DRI3. Just no.
- posix_me_less 7y ago
  It is not false. Complaining about obscure gpu driver feature not working in Linux kind of proves the parent's point. Most usual hardware works out of the box on Linux now, except for the nvidia cards, but even that can be made to work with their binary driver. If the AMD driver does not support some obscure feature, that is on AMD. They work on it, complain there, but naturally some things have higher priority than driving multiple monitors from a single port.
  - tjoff 7y ago
    I'm not blaming linux for manufacturer not supporting linux well enough. But I'm stating drivers are an immense issue for linux - regardless of who is to blame. Maybe I shouldn't have started with an "obscure" example. Maybe that the driver crashes if displays are awakened from sleep? Mind you - only waking the screens from sleep, not the entire system (that doesn't work either, but I don't know which driver that is to blame for that yet). Or that ubuntu LTS are just incapable of turning off most machines I've installed it on? (machines that did exist for a while when the LTS version came out).
    - posix_me_less 7y ago
      Yeah, those other issues are real and they suck, especially when one uses the most up-to-date software and they still happen. Point taken.
webreac 7y ago
I do not enjoy configuring Linux, but I hate fixing Windows issues. I just reboot, deinstall, reinstall and at the end I have not learned anything and I do not even know if the problem will occur again. When I fix a problem in Linux, it is a journey that makes me discover unknown territories. At the end, I have improved my experience and knowledge. For linux, I am in control. For windows I am a puppet of Microsoft will.
jeremyjh 7y ago
The last time I was shopping for a laptop (a year ago), Arch's wiki said it was all broken for the models that interested me. Here's an example, if you have better information maybe update the wiki. https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Dell_XPS_15_9570#Graphics https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Dell_XPS_15_9570#Graphi...
- ndarwincorn 7y ago
  I'm not updating the wiki for a device I don't own, or plan on owning. Especially when the relevant part of the wiki is correct.[1] [1]https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/PRIME#PRIME_GPU_offloading https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/PRIME#PRIME_GPU_offload...
paranoidrobot 7y ago
> What this ignores is that Linux driver support is generally fantastic, works out of the box in a way that desktop architects at MS dream about and is infinitely more current in practice since you go to one place to update all your software, including driver software, something MS hasn't been able to get right in a decade of trying. Generally, yes, it's pretty decent on first go and there's a nice default happy path. Unfortunately in my own experience, that path isn't particularly wide, and there's a huge number of gaps. Version compatibility is a major issue, imo. One driver or package works great on one kernel version is completely broken on the next. A few hours ago I tried to install the official AMD drivers for Ubuntu. It's not until the install script has already gone and screwed up my system that I get told that they don't support 19.04. I just don't have that issue on Windows as a rule. I'm not claiming Windows is perfect by any means, it's got it's own set of issues.
- mkesper 7y ago
  Linux driver support is fantastic because it's not made by manufacturers.
  - qplex 7y ago
    This is not correct. Many manufacturers contribute drivers to the kernel.
- posix_me_less 7y ago
  Version incompatibility is expected, because Linux kernel changes a lot. You need the correct driver for your kernel. The amdgpu driver is a part of Linux distribution, your best option is to install it from Ubuntu apt repository, not from manufacturer's website. Which now explicitly and clearly says the driver is for Ubuntu 18.04 only - did you not see that?
  - paranoidrobot 7y ago
    > Version incompatibility is expected, because Linux kernel changes a lot. Expected by whom, though? I could understand it if it was major kernel versions or something like that, but it seems that a whole bunch of things are really tightly linked. > Which now explicitly and clearly says the driver is for Ubuntu 18.04 only - did you not see that? I honestly didn't. I went back and checked - yep, it does say for 18.04[1]. I have to say though that I wouldn't have automatically assumed it was ONLY for 18.04 though without it being more explicit about that. If the official drivers are available within the repo from now on, then it'd be great for AMD to actually say that. (I realise this isn't Ubuntu's fault) [1] https://www.amd.com/en/support/graphics/amd-radeon-hd/amd-radeon-hd-7000-series/amd-radeon-hd-7850 https://www.amd.com/en/support/graphics/amd-radeon-hd/amd-ra...

Osiris 7y ago

I spent a lot of time trying to get dynamic switching working and after countless hours I gave up. Optimus is definitely not a "solved problem", unless you know some method I didn't find in my dozens of hours of googling how to get it to work on a system76 laptop (Linux preinstalled) and a 2012 MacBook.

ndarwincorn 7y ago
The "solved problem" is using the kernel implementation of muxless hybrid graphics (PRIME), not Nvidia's proprietary one (Optimus).
- StudentStuff 7y ago
  Yeah, the "happy path" here is applicable if you don't attempt to install janky/poorly maintained proprietary out of tree drivers. The reason these drivers are out of tree is usually due to either serious hardware flaws, incompetent/inept vendors, or a combination of both. AMD has (in large part) fixed this by reusing the kernel shim from AMDGPU (open source & mainlined in kernel) for their proprietary driver (AMDGPU-Pro). Nvidia meanwhile has stated they will not support Wayland, and has sandbagged the integration of their Linux Kernel patches for their single board computers (like the ones that are used in Tesla's cars). They don't give a fuck if their clients are stuck on broken, insecure BSPs, and frankly they operate as a malicious vendor: https://www.theregister.co.uk/2018/01/03/nvidia_server_gpus/ https://www.theregister.co.uk/2018/01/03/nvidia_server_gpus/
  - jeremyjh 7y ago
    Yes, Nvidia provides terrible support for Linux, but it doesn't matter whose fault it is. That is the basis of many, many complaints about drivers for Linux. Nvidia ships in a great many laptops. If Nvidia sucks on linux, linux has a problem with drivers, full stop.

dingu 7y ago

> YMMV, but as far as I know that's more or less a solved problem by default (for X anyway) with DRI3. https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/NVIDIA_Optimus https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/NVIDIA_Optimus LOL. What a bunch of crap.

ndarwincorn 7y ago
If you're gonna reference the wiki, cite the right article[1]. Under the 'GPU Offloading' heading (the feature most folks want in dual discrete/integrated laptops): > Note: This setting is no longer necessary when using the default intel/modesetting driver from the official repos, as they have DRI3 enabled by default and will therefore automatically make these assignments. Explicitly setting them again does no harm, though. I had to do nothing out of the box to have a working PRIME setup on my work laptop over a year ago, and I'd never used a laptop with discrete graphics prior. My only driver issue was with DisplayLink (proprietary), where I had to pin xorg because it wasn't compatible with 1.19. [1] https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/PRIME https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/PRIME
- robrtsql 7y ago
  Most people want to use the proprietary drivers, because nouveau's performance is prohibitively low for gaming. And that only supports switching GPUs with a reboot. It does work, but it's not very nice, which is what we are upset about.
  - StudentStuff 7y ago
    Choose a vendor that isn't actively fighting the OS they sell and support if you want your hardware to work as expected: https://www.theregister.co.uk/2018/01/03/nvidia_server_gpus/ https://www.theregister.co.uk/2018/01/03/nvidia_server_gpus/ eGPUs in a laptop format is a bit silly, you sacrifice the mobility of the laptop to get a very cut down discrete mobile GPU. AMD has started to eat this market alive due to the performance per watt advantage: https://redd.it/bc5hkg https://redd.it/bc5hkg Consumers are much more likely to bring a sub-5lb HP x360 everywhere than a bulky 8+lb laptop.

tjoff 7y ago

I'm not sure how the bubble you live in came to be but for ordinary desktop/laptop hardware that is as false as can be. And there is a very simple reason for that. All desktop PCs and laptops are sold with windows, if no support exist the hardware as a whole will not exist. Meanwhile in linux land I still can't use my three monitors because displayport MST doesn't work with the open source AMD driver. Support has existed for quite a while, but it seems none of the five people on the internet that have actually tried it has gotten it to work. Just one of the many driver issues I currently have on a couple of machines with linux. > YMMV, but as far as I know that's more or less a solved problem by default (for X anyway) with DRI3. Just no.

posix_me_less 7y ago
It is not false. Complaining about obscure gpu driver feature not working in Linux kind of proves the parent's point. Most usual hardware works out of the box on Linux now, except for the nvidia cards, but even that can be made to work with their binary driver. If the AMD driver does not support some obscure feature, that is on AMD. They work on it, complain there, but naturally some things have higher priority than driving multiple monitors from a single port.
- tjoff 7y ago
  I'm not blaming linux for manufacturer not supporting linux well enough. But I'm stating drivers are an immense issue for linux - regardless of who is to blame. Maybe I shouldn't have started with an "obscure" example. Maybe that the driver crashes if displays are awakened from sleep? Mind you - only waking the screens from sleep, not the entire system (that doesn't work either, but I don't know which driver that is to blame for that yet). Or that ubuntu LTS are just incapable of turning off most machines I've installed it on? (machines that did exist for a while when the LTS version came out).
  - posix_me_less 7y ago
    Yeah, those other issues are real and they suck, especially when one uses the most up-to-date software and they still happen. Point taken.

webreac 7y ago

I do not enjoy configuring Linux, but I hate fixing Windows issues. I just reboot, deinstall, reinstall and at the end I have not learned anything and I do not even know if the problem will occur again. When I fix a problem in Linux, it is a journey that makes me discover unknown territories. At the end, I have improved my experience and knowledge. For linux, I am in control. For windows I am a puppet of Microsoft will.

jeremyjh 7y ago

The last time I was shopping for a laptop (a year ago), Arch's wiki said it was all broken for the models that interested me. Here's an example, if you have better information maybe update the wiki. https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Dell_XPS_15_9570#Graphics https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Dell_XPS_15_9570#Graphi...

ndarwincorn 7y ago
I'm not updating the wiki for a device I don't own, or plan on owning. Especially when the relevant part of the wiki is correct.[1] [1]https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/PRIME#PRIME_GPU_offloading https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/PRIME#PRIME_GPU_offload...

paranoidrobot 7y ago

> What this ignores is that Linux driver support is generally fantastic, works out of the box in a way that desktop architects at MS dream about and is infinitely more current in practice since you go to one place to update all your software, including driver software, something MS hasn't been able to get right in a decade of trying. Generally, yes, it's pretty decent on first go and there's a nice default happy path. Unfortunately in my own experience, that path isn't particularly wide, and there's a huge number of gaps. Version compatibility is a major issue, imo. One driver or package works great on one kernel version is completely broken on the next. A few hours ago I tried to install the official AMD drivers for Ubuntu. It's not until the install script has already gone and screwed up my system that I get told that they don't support 19.04. I just don't have that issue on Windows as a rule. I'm not claiming Windows is perfect by any means, it's got it's own set of issues.

mkesper 7y ago
Linux driver support is fantastic because it's not made by manufacturers.
- qplex 7y ago
  This is not correct. Many manufacturers contribute drivers to the kernel.
posix_me_less 7y ago
Version incompatibility is expected, because Linux kernel changes a lot. You need the correct driver for your kernel. The amdgpu driver is a part of Linux distribution, your best option is to install it from Ubuntu apt repository, not from manufacturer's website. Which now explicitly and clearly says the driver is for Ubuntu 18.04 only - did you not see that?
- paranoidrobot 7y ago
  > Version incompatibility is expected, because Linux kernel changes a lot. Expected by whom, though? I could understand it if it was major kernel versions or something like that, but it seems that a whole bunch of things are really tightly linked. > Which now explicitly and clearly says the driver is for Ubuntu 18.04 only - did you not see that? I honestly didn't. I went back and checked - yep, it does say for 18.04[1]. I have to say though that I wouldn't have automatically assumed it was ONLY for 18.04 though without it being more explicit about that. If the official drivers are available within the repo from now on, then it'd be great for AMD to actually say that. (I realise this isn't Ubuntu's fault) [1] https://www.amd.com/en/support/graphics/amd-radeon-hd/amd-radeon-hd-7000-series/amd-radeon-hd-7850 https://www.amd.com/en/support/graphics/amd-radeon-hd/amd-ra...