9 ms·

Despite the wording I don't think that is the original definition? The idea is to make Linux viable as a desktop operating system, and whatever comes with that.

by gorio 7y ago

Despite the wording I don't think that is the original definition? The idea is to make Linux viable as a desktop operating system, and whatever comes with that. Not running Linux as an application on another desktop. Which is almost the opposite as in leveraging capabilities outside of Linux. Maybe more importantly redefining the goal isn't helping Linux much. I remember everyone raving about Android, but now look at the lack of vanilla graphics drivers for embedded platforms. That said, I have nothing against WSL.

Osiris 7y ago
Given that drivers are Linux's biggest problem, isn't there benefit to leveraging Windows drivers and then running Linux on top of that virtualized hardware? I don't see why you couldn't run x11 in the window manager with the new Linux kernel in Windows.
- goodcanadian 7y ago
  Drivers are sometimes a bit slow to come to Linux, but it's been years since I've had a problem with any hardware more than about 1 year old. The community is large and talented and has a diverse range of interests. Some truly old and obscure stuff is supported. Most new hardware is supported with a reasonable time after release.
- kevin_thibedeau 7y ago
  You can run X11 today with Cygwin.
  - naikrovek 7y ago
    You can run X11 on Windows today without Cygwin, too.
    - c-smile 7y ago
      Can we just have Linux kernel but without that XXX thing please?
      - pjmlp 7y ago
        Sure, you can pick between ChromeOS and Android.
      - mnbvkhgvmj 7y ago
        Wayland... Try Fedora?
- StudentStuff 7y ago
  Windows has less hardware support than Linux. Most single board computers can run mainline Linux, whereas just a handful support Windows IoT. AMD, ARM (CPUs & Mali GPUs), Intel, VIA, Qualcomm (Adreno) all have support in kernel 5, whereas Microsoft is still stuck subsetting a small group of ARM GPUs and branding Windows 10's OpenGL ES support as DirectX 11. This is a repeat of the troubles Microsoft had with supporting Windows Phone, but now the userbase is significantly smaller despite a wider array of hardware to support.
  - jeremyjh 7y ago
    There are things that don't work well though, classic example are laptops that dynamically switch between discrete and integrated graphics. You'll probably run everything on the dedicated GPU which hurts battery life. Still, my old desktop scanner that the manufacturer stopped publishing drives for during the Windows Vista era? Yeah Linux runs it like a boss. No looking up drivers or config parameters on the internet, it just works.
    - ndarwincorn 7y ago
      > classic example are laptops that dynamically switch between discrete and integrated graphics YMMV, but as far as I know that's more or less a solved problem by default (for X anyway) with DRI3. This particular complaint echoes folks (I was one) who booted Ubuntu desktop a decade ago and couldn't get wifi to work, and proceeded to complain about shoddy driver support (to present day, clearly), using only that single outdated* example as an argument. Of course this is compounded by a ~months to ~years delay in most desktops getting those improvements thanks to the glacial pace at which the mainstream desktop distros update their repos. Was there a point when Optimus/Bumblebee/Prime was a shitshow? Yes. Is that still reality? No. What this ignores is that Linux driver support is generally fantastic, works out of the box in a way that desktop architects at MS dream about and is infinitely more current in practice since you go to one place to update all your software, including driver software, something MS hasn't been able to get right in a decade of trying. Regardless, mobile battery life's still worse on Linux. And as much as some things are super convenient compared to the Windows/Apple world, the truism a friend told me as I wrestled with Ubuntu ten years ago remains true today: Linux is for folks that enjoy configuring Linux. * I have to use a combo of DKMS and an AUR package to get WiFi on my one year old IdeaPad, so outdated may be the wrong word there. Better to say that realtek and broadcom chips have gotten hit hard by Intel's move into consumer networking. Worth pointing out that 'year of the Linux desktop' probably predates that.
- meruru 7y ago
  Drivers are far from the biggest problem for Linux adoption. The biggest problems are: + Network Effects + Brand recognition in the general public + Indifference to FOSS principles + Resistance to change
  - marvy 7y ago
    One more: OEMs like Dell and HP aren't allowed (by Microsoft) to sell PCs that dual-boot between Windows and something else, such as GNU/Linux so the only people that get to try Linux are those that have it pre-installed as the only OS, or those willing and able to install it themselves. Source: read about it somewhere or other; main topic was the history of BeOS.
    - qplex 7y ago
      This (the OEM deals) is really by far the biggest problem that Linux has on the desktop. Microsoft still plays dirty and has done that for a long time.
      - gorio 7y ago
        Why? As far as I am concerned these are all legacy problems. Drivers mostly work, people are aware of Linux and it can be e.g. run off an external drive. The problem is desktop Linux just isn't good enough. From a macro perspective it takes significant effort to manage, significant effort to develop for and provides significantly less value to users, developers and organizations alike. And exceptions doesn't make that less true. There is no conspiracy against Linux, or at least not an effective one. If there is anything hurting Linux it is its mainstream proponents like Google, who like to take but not give back agency. If desktop Linux was good enough, or more precisely great at what people need, they would be using it.
goodcanadian 7y ago
I keep seeing this angst over whether Linux will ever be ready on the desktop. Well, I've been using it exclusively for something like 15 years.
- toong 7y ago
  Me too, since 2004 with Fedora 3 back then. And I'm growing more and more frustrated with it the last few years. Maybe I just have less time and patience nowadays :-)
  - cookiecaper 7y ago
    I was on Linux desktop 99% of the time between 2006 and 2014 (I now use a Windows workspace with GPU passthrough on my main system), and just today my frustration with Windows was piquing to the extent that I'm ready to go back to a nix desktop. Maybe people just get fed up with the same grating pain points and need to spread the frustration around. Periodic changes in scenery are healthy. :)
  - cmiles74 7y ago
    Windows and MacOS have their frustrating points as well, I don't think any of these systems are perfect. I suspect the vast majority of computer using people could get by with a Linux desktop with about the same amount of frustration they suffer already. At least on Linux I can fix the things that are really making me nuts.
- gorio 7y ago
  So your opinion is that it's ready?
  - goodcanadian 7y ago
    For most purposes, it has been ready for years. There are a handful of proprietary programs that individual people may need for work that aren't available, and you aren't going to be able to play the latest games on Linux. Most people, however, could switch to one of many Linux distributions and be just as productive if not moreso.
basq 7y ago
You pinpointed exactly the rub I was experiencing. Reminds me of "Rules as Written" vs "Rules as Intended" dichotomy I see mentioned on the Dungeons and Dragons stack exchange. If this really is the year of the linux desktop, it's not what I had imagined.

by gorio 7y ago

Osiris 7y ago

Given that drivers are Linux's biggest problem, isn't there benefit to leveraging Windows drivers and then running Linux on top of that virtualized hardware? I don't see why you couldn't run x11 in the window manager with the new Linux kernel in Windows.

goodcanadian 7y ago
Drivers are sometimes a bit slow to come to Linux, but it's been years since I've had a problem with any hardware more than about 1 year old. The community is large and talented and has a diverse range of interests. Some truly old and obscure stuff is supported. Most new hardware is supported with a reasonable time after release.
kevin_thibedeau 7y ago
You can run X11 today with Cygwin.
- naikrovek 7y ago
  You can run X11 on Windows today without Cygwin, too.
  - c-smile 7y ago
    Can we just have Linux kernel but without that XXX thing please?
    - pjmlp 7y ago
      Sure, you can pick between ChromeOS and Android.
    - mnbvkhgvmj 7y ago
      Wayland... Try Fedora?
StudentStuff 7y ago
Windows has less hardware support than Linux. Most single board computers can run mainline Linux, whereas just a handful support Windows IoT. AMD, ARM (CPUs & Mali GPUs), Intel, VIA, Qualcomm (Adreno) all have support in kernel 5, whereas Microsoft is still stuck subsetting a small group of ARM GPUs and branding Windows 10's OpenGL ES support as DirectX 11. This is a repeat of the troubles Microsoft had with supporting Windows Phone, but now the userbase is significantly smaller despite a wider array of hardware to support.
- jeremyjh 7y ago
  There are things that don't work well though, classic example are laptops that dynamically switch between discrete and integrated graphics. You'll probably run everything on the dedicated GPU which hurts battery life. Still, my old desktop scanner that the manufacturer stopped publishing drives for during the Windows Vista era? Yeah Linux runs it like a boss. No looking up drivers or config parameters on the internet, it just works.
  - ndarwincorn 7y ago
    > classic example are laptops that dynamically switch between discrete and integrated graphics YMMV, but as far as I know that's more or less a solved problem by default (for X anyway) with DRI3. This particular complaint echoes folks (I was one) who booted Ubuntu desktop a decade ago and couldn't get wifi to work, and proceeded to complain about shoddy driver support (to present day, clearly), using only that single outdated* example as an argument. Of course this is compounded by a ~months to ~years delay in most desktops getting those improvements thanks to the glacial pace at which the mainstream desktop distros update their repos. Was there a point when Optimus/Bumblebee/Prime was a shitshow? Yes. Is that still reality? No. What this ignores is that Linux driver support is generally fantastic, works out of the box in a way that desktop architects at MS dream about and is infinitely more current in practice since you go to one place to update all your software, including driver software, something MS hasn't been able to get right in a decade of trying. Regardless, mobile battery life's still worse on Linux. And as much as some things are super convenient compared to the Windows/Apple world, the truism a friend told me as I wrestled with Ubuntu ten years ago remains true today: Linux is for folks that enjoy configuring Linux. * I have to use a combo of DKMS and an AUR package to get WiFi on my one year old IdeaPad, so outdated may be the wrong word there. Better to say that realtek and broadcom chips have gotten hit hard by Intel's move into consumer networking. Worth pointing out that 'year of the Linux desktop' probably predates that.
meruru 7y ago
Drivers are far from the biggest problem for Linux adoption. The biggest problems are: + Network Effects + Brand recognition in the general public + Indifference to FOSS principles + Resistance to change
- marvy 7y ago
  One more: OEMs like Dell and HP aren't allowed (by Microsoft) to sell PCs that dual-boot between Windows and something else, such as GNU/Linux so the only people that get to try Linux are those that have it pre-installed as the only OS, or those willing and able to install it themselves. Source: read about it somewhere or other; main topic was the history of BeOS.
  - qplex 7y ago
    This (the OEM deals) is really by far the biggest problem that Linux has on the desktop. Microsoft still plays dirty and has done that for a long time.
    - gorio 7y ago
      Why? As far as I am concerned these are all legacy problems. Drivers mostly work, people are aware of Linux and it can be e.g. run off an external drive. The problem is desktop Linux just isn't good enough. From a macro perspective it takes significant effort to manage, significant effort to develop for and provides significantly less value to users, developers and organizations alike. And exceptions doesn't make that less true. There is no conspiracy against Linux, or at least not an effective one. If there is anything hurting Linux it is its mainstream proponents like Google, who like to take but not give back agency. If desktop Linux was good enough, or more precisely great at what people need, they would be using it.

goodcanadian 7y ago

I keep seeing this angst over whether Linux will ever be ready on the desktop. Well, I've been using it exclusively for something like 15 years.

toong 7y ago
Me too, since 2004 with Fedora 3 back then. And I'm growing more and more frustrated with it the last few years. Maybe I just have less time and patience nowadays :-)
- cookiecaper 7y ago
  I was on Linux desktop 99% of the time between 2006 and 2014 (I now use a Windows workspace with GPU passthrough on my main system), and just today my frustration with Windows was piquing to the extent that I'm ready to go back to a nix desktop. Maybe people just get fed up with the same grating pain points and need to spread the frustration around. Periodic changes in scenery are healthy. :)
- cmiles74 7y ago
  Windows and MacOS have their frustrating points as well, I don't think any of these systems are perfect. I suspect the vast majority of computer using people could get by with a Linux desktop with about the same amount of frustration they suffer already. At least on Linux I can fix the things that are really making me nuts.
gorio 7y ago
So your opinion is that it's ready?
- goodcanadian 7y ago
  For most purposes, it has been ready for years. There are a handful of proprietary programs that individual people may need for work that aren't available, and you aren't going to be able to play the latest games on Linux. Most people, however, could switch to one of many Linux distributions and be just as productive if not moreso.

basq 7y ago

You pinpointed exactly the rub I was experiencing. Reminds me of "Rules as Written" vs "Rules as Intended" dichotomy I see mentioned on the Dungeons and Dragons stack exchange. If this really is the year of the linux desktop, it's not what I had imagined.